Catalans saw the merger of two financially struggling clubs into one that is now generating average crowds of 7-8k plus. Youth participation in France has also increased since their introduction into SL. How much more do you think they should be achieving?

Again, using the number of people who came to Wembley as a litmus test is not a fair representation of their support in my view - flights to London during the August BH are not cheap.

And I stand by my point, it is not and never has been the job of Catalans to improve the French national team any more that it is the job of Leeds, Wigan, Huddersfield or Batley to improve the England team. We haven't beaten the Aussies for years, so why don't we bin off those clubs as failed clubs as well? That's the standard you're applying to Catalans, so what's good for the goose and all that.

What is wrong with simply having the Catalans in the league as a competitive club in their own right, rather than applying these impossible standards to them that we don't apply to other clubs for some reason? In an environment where we have promotion and relegation, they should be free to build the best team they can within the rules like any other club, whether they are French or otherwise.

You were the one that brought money into this.

I miss Bramley RLFC, do you ?

Yes my dad missed Liverpool and Broughton Rangers.

The game has changed.

Some football fans probably miss Corinthians.

What is the point

Quote ="Budgiezilla"I miss Bramley RLFC, do you ?'" You can still go and watch them playing at an appropriate level www.bramleybuffs.com/

Quote ="Budgiezilla"I miss Bramley RLFC, do you ?'" You can still go and watch them playing at an appropriate level www.bramleybuffs.com/

I don't miss them at all. I'm still a community shareholder in them.

But you keep going with building that strawman of yours.

It was a 'light hearted/irrelevant' comment. There are some really serious/miserable folk on here.






Cheer up FFS !

Are Bramley still run by that communist clown?

Groucho Marx ?

Everything is more expensive on the August BHW but if Wakefield or Widnes got to the final and didn't half fill their allocation, the same people defending Catalan would saying we should get rid of small town teams.

You have just undone the argument that we need teams away from northern England, if Catalans (and Toronto) are just a club like any other then why couldn't it be Leigh or Bradford or whoever instead? Why were Catalan given special treatment to get them promoted and then ring fenced from relegation in their first year in SL? Why do Toronto get to play blocks of home and away games to make their fixture list easier?

I am not saying we should get rid of 'expansion' teams btw, just that I don't understand why some people seem to think it is better for the game to have Toronto in the league over say Fev, no matter what their on field performances are.

Come on London beat the Fleapack for the good of all RL.Unlucky Pansymonium

I think it's also important to get a full team on the field.

I wouldn’t mind both London and Toronto in, for the good of the game. If we don’t grow the game it will be dead in 20 years or so, at least in a professional sense.

London would need to invest and be competitive though, otherwise they wouldn’t attract supporters.

Glad the Mad Max extras going to watch Toronto on free tickets are in MPG.With luck London will beat them

I'm not undoing any argument. I'm simply saying that if you're going to hold one club to performance a metric that is beyond their control, you need to hold all clubs to performance metrics beyond their control, rather than using this absurd double standard to judge Catalans.

The reality that you ignore is that Catalans are responsible for two failing clubs coming together to create one that is performing on the field and attracting gates that surpass many clubs in the heartlands, and that youth participation has increased in France since their introduction into SL. I ask you again; what more do you want them to achieve to be considered successful in their own right?

As for your last comment, the whole "why are some clubs more valuable than others?" thing comes down to commercial potential. How many potential sponsors are sat in meetings going "you know what? Featherstone is a real growth market for us!"? There is your answer. Sponsors and broadcasters, the people we need to attract to get more money into this sport, don't give a stuff about deprived former mining towns with 17,000 living in them.

You can decry that all you like and say that the only thing that should matter is what is on the pitch (ignoring that Fev have been nowhere near qualifying for SL since the switch to Summer) , but then you've no right to complain when this sport continues its decline and can only manage sponsorships from tinned mushy pea brands and payday loan sharks.

Just when is this "commercial potential" going to come to fruition? We're seeing zilch so far, and from the numbers being bandied around recently, there's no expectation of any increase on what we've got now when the TV deal gets back on the table. Indeed, a decrease seems to be what is being expected?

There's still no evidence of a coherent plan for the game that will reverse this "decline", whether that means expansion or otherwise.

Your rhetoric is great, but there's nothing substantial and sustainable forthcoming for the good of the game based purely on clubs outside of the UK being part of our competition. In fact, given our limited resources, they are a drain due to the additional travel costs for clubs.

Ultimately its down to the clubs to realise that potential, but the reality is that without the Catalans, we wouldn't have Super League aired on television sets in Continental Europe, we wouldn't have had companies like Renault or Air France KLM involved with the sport (both companies that have sponsored the Dragons in some capacity) and the geographic spread of this sport on a professional level would be the smallest it has ever been in the summer era.

But two things need bearing in mind firstly, its not going to fall into our lap. All clubs have a duty to go out there and grow their clubs using these tools, rather than expecting the tools to do it for them. And secondly, Catalans, Toronto and any other club will do things in their interests - to expect English clubs to benefit from the commercial successes of expansion clubs is laziness on their part.

As I've said plenty of times before, expansion is not necessarily THE answer, but it's currently the best answer we have. I've heard lots of people claiming that the answer is to "focus on the heartlands", but not one of those people claiming that can offer an explanation as to how doing so makes the sport relevant to new audiences and the modern TV and sponsorship market. If they could, I'd perhaps have more sympathy with the anti-expansion argument.

The sport spends too much time talking to the people who already buy it, and not nearly enough time talking to the people who don't. That needs to change.

So, genuine question, how does SL being aired in Europe and having Renault, Air France & KLM involved help the game IN THE UK?

Overseas TV coverage, used properly, increases the profile of the competition and our clubs. It also makes it easier for Sky to increase the number of hours of RL content on UK TV which, if used properly, provides opportunity to the clubs to increase their profile and drive up the value they offer to sponsors. If the clubs aren't capitalising on that, you need to take it up with them.

Renault sponsored the back of Catalans shirts in the earlier years of the club. Since then, they have sponsored the league as a whole with its Dacia brand for the last three years. That's money into the league - probably not a lot, but money nevertheless.

As for Air France KLM, let's remember that this is a Catalans sponsorship deal - there's no right for any club to demand a benefit from that. You wouldn't expect Halifax to benefit from Leeds' sponsorship with LBS.

So, there are the benefits. Some the sport has realised, but there are many that they haven't. As far as I'm concerned, the cost of some flights are an opportunity cost worth paying for that (and that's if you see it as a cost - Leeds' trips to France in most years cost the club nothing due to how they package up their away travel packages for the game).

Like I said, I'm willing to listen to any "focus on the heartlands" argument that actually addresses the challenges the sport faces - lack of commercial appeal and an aging, dwindling audience.

Is that a serious question?

Having those type of companies invest in the SL helps the whole of SL, do you want less money coming into SL and fewer blue chip sponsors?

And of course SL being aired in Europe helps SL in the UK, it means SL is aired in Europe, it is that simple I cannot believe you think that couldn’t help the game.

We have a winner..

So, you think that Sky will be throwing more cash at SL etc when the deal comes round for renegotiation? In other more £££ for Uk clubs?

Serious question? Of course it is. What evidence is there that their "investment" will mean more £££ for UK clubs?

I've won lots, but please expand?

At the moment no, because I don't think we offer Sky enough value to justify a larger TV deal.

We don't offer the audience that advertisers will pay good money to reach, we dilute our own TV audience by allowing clubs to schedule fixture that clash with our TV slots, the product isn't actually that good at the moment (bigger winning matins, fewer games won by < 1 score and loop fixtures for example) , and we have effectively encouraged the top box office talent to leave the league through real-terms cuts in the salary cap.

But those issues are entirely separate to Catalans being in the league in the here and now. The state of our TV deal is entirely down to failures at club level, and expansion is just one method of mitigating that failure.