Wales benefited from Crusaders in SL, it meant that Welsh players got to play for a SL academy, as opposed to a Conference side.

If Crusaders hadn't been a SL side then they would have been playing first team football in NL1 / CC.

Possibly but I suspect that it is more of a case of having one NL2 / CC1 side as opposed to an NL1 / CC side as I don't think Wrexham Crusaders will last very long.

Flatcapper

well thats nice for you,

but we can cross that bridge when we come to it rather than death riding one of our clubs

You may come to it very shortly.

They only have half a squad at present, they couldn't put out a full 17 without getting Iestyn, Noble and Sharp kitted up.

If the South Wales team does get approval (which I hope for), I would imagine that quite a few of their players, particularly the younger ones, would rather play CC1 / NL2 in South Wales than play SL for a team 130 miles away. Particularly as by Dixon's admission, they are not ready for SL action.

If Wrexham Crusaders have any future at all then they need to stop arsing about get a home base and get a team because they need to move mountains just to have a team that will win three games out of 27.

If you don't want people "death riding" the Crusaders then don't bring up how great it is to have a Welsh team in SL and a Championship 1 side because as I see it, the creation of the latter will undermine the former but since they are probably screwed anyway there is no reason not to.

I'd say it is better because it is highly likely they would have been more successful in the Championship and it's likely they would not be facing this hefty storm. Where are those extra 2/3s going to go to watch their team every home game? We could well end up losing those people to the game forever after them seeing how their club has been run into the ground. Would you be loyal to a club that uprooted and moved 90 miles north of your town?

Sustainable growth in my opinion is far better than 1 season of slightly bigger crowds followed by a hellish off season.



Not if the SL club ends up floundering and on the verge of collapse after it's first season.



Financial difficulties wouldn't be such a big deal were it not the host of other issues that they are facing.



The past hundred years of 'organic growth' clearly did not have the backing that the game has had since 2006 in Wales. I still fail to see what benefit the last 12 months in Super League has had. I see no reason why the game wouldn't have still grown at a similar rate with the same level of backing.

As for examples of 'organic growth' of a pro SL club, how about the growth of Leeds, Hull KR, Warrington or Wigan for example? I'd have thought that would be obvious...

So far the only argument you've given is that approximately 1,500 more fans per game watched the Crusaders in Super League than they did in their previous season.

Anyway I've made my point, carry on this futile debate if you wish but I won't contribute further. It's quite clear that you will argue that is better than sugar given the opportunity.

Celtic crusaders should start from NL2 and earn promotion into NL1.

then they should have to finish top 2 in NL1 when the top 2 teams get promoted.

thats the proper way to do it.

Didn't we do that then?

Some would say that they already have. On the other hand, I think it gave them a false position as it wasn't achieved on equal terms.

Yes I would and have.

We did that in the constraints that the RFL let us do it. We don't make the rules.

we never had them to lose before hand, IF we fail, then it is infinitely better for us to have tried and failed than never tried at all! The fans are going to watch their teams home games at their home grounds
Sustainable growth towards what? there isnt 'sustainable growth' in this game for new clubs, there never has been, which is why there hasnt been an amateur club joining the semi-pro game in about 80 years bar the London Skolars

a couple extra years in the championship wouldnt have made Celtic better prepared for SL, there really is no point pretending it would, at one stage we needed to take the gamble, whats the point in not doing it last year



why? we already, before anything has even happened, have another club wanting to join, purely on the basis of the Crusaders, in 4 years we have gone from nothing, nada, zilch to having a new person looking to invest in RL and take SL to another part of Wales and another set of people looking to bring another semi-pro RL club to Wales. We have fantastic youth development going on and we stil have an SL club, these are all fantastic things for the game that have come about because we offered Crusaders an opportunity

other clubs in other sports have other issues, who cares,

we have a football club, one of the biggest in the country, the biggest club in the biggest county in the country, who are getting 20k a week attendances in the third division of football, having run up incomprehensible debts bidding to host the 2nd biggest sporting event in the world in the stadium they have played in for years, and it only now becomes apparent nobody has a clue who owns the bloody thing, does this mean football is in trouble? no of course not



the three years preceding 2009 wouldnt have happened without 2009. And the growth over the past 4 years clearly wasnt 'organic' its almost the very anti-thesis of 'organic growth' it has been purely investment led, and done on the basis of SL rugby.
you mean the Warrington, Wigan, and Leeds who have never played amateur RL? Clubs who started their lives in the top tier? the Warrington club supported by Simon Moran? the Leeds club which was on its before Paul Caddick? the Wigan club who got relegated and sold the family silver before Dave Whelan? the Hull KR club who were struggling along in the 3rd tier in front of crowds similar to Crusaders in the semi-pro tiers before Neil Hudgell?

what about Widnes, surely they have grown organically, there surely hasnt been a huge cash injection from the owner of that club has there?



you certainly have made your point, and its abundantly clear. We know you are bitter, we know this, but we dont care anymore. Celtic and its success is wonderful for the game, if it fails it fails, but it was never going to succeed through this imaginary 'organic growth' no club ever has, and its likely no club ever will---but i think in reality thats what you want

That was how it was in olden times but then under that same rule Crusaders would have been relegated back to NL1.

I don't think they would be in nearly as much trouble today if they were having to prepare for an NL1 season rather than SL.

Very true, but like I say I think it gave an artificially high indication of your progress, the fruits of which are sadly there for all to see at the moment



Personally speaking, and I'm not sure whether or not you'd agree, but I think only a true sign of a club being ready for Super League is satisying the criteria, particularly on the field, when competing on a level playing field with other clubs. Sure, it would have meant you might not have got in to Super League for another 5-10 years, but at least it would have shown a further degree of readiness for the challenges that you have faced.

you think a million pounds a year + more sponsorship opportunities makes it harder for the crusaders?

so if Celtic had spent a few hundred thousand pounds more on semi-pro players who werent good enough for SL it would have better prepared them for SL?

I think finding a team that can compete at SL level is going to be pretty tricky when everyone decent is already signed up.

Now I can believe that they could put a decent CC / NL1 side together from what they have now plus a few more local signings.

Do you think the good folk of Wrexham are going to pay to watch regular 66-0 thrashings?

If there was no uncertainty about Leighton Samuel I would have been ok with what we did last season. 3 wins, 3,600 + average home gate, youngsters coming through already and playing big parts in Wales winning the European Cup and John Dixon looking to strengthen again.

It was the off field incapability that has caused the problems. I think if this was remedied and we'd found someone else with money down here we could have gone from strength to strength. As it is it isn't meant to be and we have to like it or lump it.

bloody hell, they havent even played the first game yet, give them a bloody chance

Why on earth would it cost [imore[/i for semi pro players than it would to import them from Australia?

I seriously think we'll do better than last season.

I know that isn't hard but think once we've sorted our home ground out we'll see a marked improvement. Our back line is looking a lot better and our forwards held their own on more than one occasion last season.

Bring it on you Northern Monkeys (apologies as I temporarily forgot the French and Cockney Monkeys).

But aren't you now North Welsh-nearly English Monkeys?

No just supporting a team who are rumoured to be based their next season.

Is that a subtle attempt at proving your Welshness, in that you can't speak English properly?



Anyroad, on the original subject, I hope that a Welsh club gets off the ground (pretty sharpish) in C1, but is prepared to sow the seeds for a number of years and do the hard work before going for the glory of Super League etc - let's make sure the people of South Wales don't miss out on the chance of experiencing this great game of ours.

No more an indication of my tiredness.

I hope it gets off the ground as I'll have two clubs to support. We'll travel up North if the two go under however. Me and the missus had a Saints/Bradford rivalry going on a while before Crusaders first started. Suppose we'd go back to that. Not any time soon though I might add. We're here to stay and I hope the new Bridgend club are.