Oh FFS bore off .

Someone queried why attendances seemed higher than expected, I just provided a reasonable explanation.

Hang on, you're not saying that they've used the total attendance at a double header as the attendance for both games do you?

If that's the case then I make Leeds' average attendance for SL regular rounds as 16,343.
The 15,197 figure is not including the Magic game.

No you didn't. You suggested that comparing "regular" attendances and excluding event games would be better. It wouldn't, unless you had an anti-union axe to grind....remember?


The NRL sides play "event" games each year.....the NZ Warriors average at Mt Smart last year was 13,152....their actual average for the season was 16,197......they actually got 1 crowd at Mount smart higher than their season average?????
The Eels 10,910 at para stadium or 12,456 for the season.

Double headers seem to be the norm in most sports now.....apparently, RLWC hit it's 500k attendance figure.....


[urlhttp://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2013/dec/01/rugby-league-world-cup[/url






I repeat, I'd be asking why Wigan v Saints don't play at Anfield or Leeds v Bradford at Elland Road, rather than trying to score points against a game that has an administration light years ahead of league!

BTW, Quins RU Aviva (That's the premiership sponsor by the way) averages 13,721 at the stoop excluding the event games.....92% capacity which would explain the thinking behind taking games OTR.

I have no idea whether they double counted attendances, I have a friend who is a Saracens supporter and she said the usual is around 6-8k (at Watford last year) and their new ground has a 10k capacity.

I know you can't quite help yourself given your troll persona but I can see no relevance in quoting the averages from one other sport. Why not add football averages to the list? RL needs to work on its own crowds, what others achieve is irrelevant except where we can learn from them and there are bigger, better and much more successful sports than RU from which RL can learn.

Fair enough. I know that the NRL count both attendances separately at the Lang double headers and I am all for boosting London's 2013 average by 30,793 to 59,568 with an average of 4,255 up from 2,213











The averages I posted in the list are for "home" games and in the case of Wasps and Saracens include the Double header season openers as their "home" games from round 1. They also include Wembley stadiums for Saracens stand alone game and Harlequins Boxing day trip across the road which attracted 82,000 as a stand alone game.

The RLWC 2013 as I posted above have happily claimed that 45,000 watched Wales v Italy and 67,000 watched Australia v Fiji.....seems Nigel's bumper book of spin had a section on the IRB/RFU

Gutterfax, could you kindly rearrange your bedroom furniture. You've been getting out of the wrong side of your bed for months. Or just give it a rest.

Why?
I posted a list of 80+ Professional Rugby Clubs attendances for their last full seasons and immediately people question the Union ones in the UK

Rather than wonder why RL clubs don't host "event" games themselves.
Saracens and Wasps averages drop by 3k each if you halve the double header crowds counted as 60k each.....dropping Saracens to below Leeds but still above Wigan and Wasps down the list, but still ahead of 8 of the current SL teams.

Saracens get 45k at Wembley for their annual "event" game which boosts their average...Harlequins host a team at the big house across the road on boxing day....these sorts of initiatives, along with the likes of the NZ Warriors playing at Eden park or Wellington are to be applauded.....but your bitter and twisted RL fans prefers to snipe.



Wigan v Saints at Anfield would attract a 45k full house IMHO.....but only because I believe the Wigan/St's marketing teams are capable....it could possibly add 2k to the Wigan seasons average and maybe convince a few new fans to visit the DW....a brilliant initiative just so long as Union don't do it

If your list has Union clubs averages that include their "event games" then the League ones should too. Leeds Magic game was a home game yet you didn't include it in their average.
London's average wouldn't be boosted as it wasn't a home game for them.
It was for Bradford, Leeds, Salford, Catalans, Castleford, Hull FC and Saints.

1 Double header and as I said, remove the double Header and Sarries drop below Leeds and Wasps drop down but still above 8 of the 14 SL clubs.

....."event" games are stand alone games and perfectly acceptable to be counted on the averages.

Irrelevant. You omitted to include some home games attendances from 7 League clubs. Either they count or they don't and should be included or omitted from all clubs in your list, not just some.

The RFL never use the Magic weekend figures so I didn't?
I have removed the doubleheader from the 2 clubs (wasps and sarries) and it delivers this list...
1 Stormers 36,822
2 Lions/Kings 32,720
3 Reds 31,848
4 Brisbane 30,480
5 Bulls 28,954
6 Sharks 23,323
7 Souths 22,261
8 Leicester Tigers 21,244
9 Harlequins 21,046
10 Blues 20,953
11 Cheetahs 20,078
12 Canterbury 19,590
13 Toulouse 19,519
14 Sydney Roosters 19,368
15 Newcastle 18,821
17 Bordeaux 17,701
18 Clermont Auvergne 17,250
19 Tards 16,960
20 Stade Francais 16,727
21 Leinster 16,525
22 Melbourne 16,302
23 New Zealand 16,197
24 Toulon 15,539
25 Leeds Rhinos 15,197
26 Crusaders 15,084
27 Munster 14,699
28 Wigan 14,545
29 Bayonne 14,506
30 Brumbies 14,287
31 Chiefs 14,280
32 North Queensland 14,112
33 Gold Coast Titans 14,028
34 Gloucester 14,004
35 Manly 13,522
36 Cronulla 13,470
37 Racing CF 13,145
16 Saracens 13,102
38 Highlanders 13,096
39 Northampton Saints 12,812
40 Parramatta 12,456
41 Force 12,427
42 St George Illawarra 12,422
43 Grenoble 12,417
45 Montpellier 12,152
46 Rebels 11,947
47 Perpignan 11,872
48 Hull FC 11,680
49 Bath 11,516
50 Wests Tigers 11,452
51 St Helens 11,345
52 Canes 10,850
53 Warrington 10,663
54 Ulster 10,544
55 Penrith 10,337
56 Biarritz 10,327
57 Canberra 10,226
58 Ospreys 9,856
59 London Irish 9,471
60 Worcester Warriors 9,306
61 Agen 8,669
62 Bradford 8,536
63 Exeter Chiefs 8,367
64 Catalan 8,363
65 Cardiff Blues 8,055
66 Wakefield 7,972
67 Castres 7,780
68 Scarlets 7,746
69 HKA 7,495
70 Sale Sharks 7,266
44 London Wasps 6,857
71 Mont de Marsan 6,454
72 Huddersfield 6,368
73 Castleford 6,306
74 Widnes 6,015
75 London Welsh 5,302
76 Gwent Dragons 5,223
77 Connacht 5,149
78 Glasgow 4,180
79 Benetton Treviso 3,808
80 Edinburgh Reivers 3,779
81 Salford 3,125
82 Zebre 2,405
83 London 2,213

Sarries are now below Wigan and Leeds and Wasps are in the bottom quarter of the 25 English Clubs. It changes little.......but makes you feel a bit better

It just baffles me why you always choose the way to make League come off worst? The thread on England attendances is a good example. Why not include the double headers and so actually include games that were played in the season instead of picking and choosing which suits your argument best.

By the way, going off the Quins website, I make their average attendance to be 19,966. Not

I don't.....but neither will I sit back and watch idiots soothe their insecurities by trying to make fun of a game that could buy and sell League with change they find down the back of the RFU reception sofa! I get ing frustrated when I see RL administration.....it is mainly inept. Even the RLWC which people are fawning over looks like delivering a 0.003% increase in actual average attendances and a 10% profit increase for 55% more games...yes it's better than 2000 but it is hardly the second coming people would have you believe.


I took the averages as were reported by the press and the clubs involved around the world.....I have removed the 1 offending double header but left the stand alone event games of the Warriors and other NRL clubs as well as Quins, Sarries and Leinster who take some games to the national stadium.......something English RL clubs should do IMHO.


I took my averages from websites, club sites and other sources and I never claimed they were 100% correct. In fact, Union clubs and their fans don't seem to put so much emphasis on attendances as League fans do so it is sometimes hard to either find an attendance or to validate it.....
I have a morbid fascination with attendances as I am a London Broncos fan.....and as we are all aware....London's attendances are an embarrassment to the sport. Somehow, the embarrassment doesn't translate to the "bigger" picture though, does it

Gutters is a compulsive liar, why are you bothering to even reply to his rubbish?

Where have I lied on here?
The average attendance at this RLWC is 0.0027% higher than 2008.
The reported profit is 10% more than 2008 with 55% more games.
2 NRL clubs appear in the top 10 averages of Rugby Clubs Globally....slightly better 5 in the top 20.
2 Superleague clubs appear in the top 50
After 1 year of the TV deal NRL attendances and TV viewing figures are down.

Please, highlight where I have LIED?

You self declared defenders of the faith remind me of a few rabid Bradford Bulls fans who claimed everything was rosy.....check out how that's unfolding. You don't have to be permanently positive about the game to enjoy it.....

You're as bad as William Eve. It's not about claiming everything is rosy, it's about not describing everything as a negative when half the time it's not. You appear to twist the stats you produce to make the situation seem worse than it is. Your list is a perfect example. It doesn't include all the home games for SL clubs. Why not? You've even said on this thread RL should hold more event games. We did, but you didn't include them in the stats, same goes for the RLWC double headers.
You say the average attendance at this RLWC is 0.0027% higher than 2008 as if that's a bad thing. Considering there are 55% more games that's bloody going for an average. The same goes for the 10% higher profit. As someone who often quotes/posts stats, attendances and averages you should know that that's a good thing, so why present it as a negative?

I think some here really are blinded to the real state of British rugby league. If I am correct, then Gutterfax is merely highlighting the FLAWS with the sport in the UK and how there needs to be some SERIOUS changes for the best or say bye bye.

There is no problem with pointing out the actual issues. Inventing your own is the problem. Gutterfax has taken on the mantel of the twisty-turny-spinny fudger on here since AP/Keith Swiftcorn/William Eve took a well deserved time out.

Inventing imaginary issues is as good an idea as ignoring actual ones.

So, this new title sponsor? Any news? Are they wondering who this Nigel bloke is and having second thoughts?

Rugby League is BRILLIANT sport that unfortunately, in the UK, is being badly managed at nearly every turn and no amount of back slapping over a RLWC that delivered little growth and even less additional profit on the last one ion 2008 is going to change that. Attendances are , 3/14 clubs pay their own way, 3/14 clubs are teetering on the edge of the abyss and the other 8 all rely on a benefactor to keep them afloat. England remain #3 in the world with no real competition from the rankings behind, the SL Sponsor (if there is one) is 3 years late and the RFL are going to throw away licencing 5 years into what was always going to take 10 years to bed down. How is the game supposed to attract investors or sponsors when it is seen to bow to the wishes of a few chairmen running pit village rugby clubs at losses who believe that 1.3 in SKY cash will make them the next Leeds or Wigan

.

I do not invent problems....I highlight them.

All this may or may not be true and i agree with a lot of it, but fudging spinning and inventing figures do not alter whether they are true or not.

Removing ‘event’ games from RL figures and arguing vehemently that they should not only not be included, may support your view point. But it doesn’t make it true. Comparing them to RU figures where you havent removed them and are a lot more sanguine about their appearence in those figures simply confirms the fact.

Just as dividing 26 data points by 28 may give a figure you are more comfortable with, but that doesn’t make it an average and it doesn’t make it true. Your points and your arguments would hold a lot more weight if you actually made them and discussed them on their merits. Your insistence on fudging, spinning and in some cases outright making up figures is the reason that you are dismissed as a troll. You are obviously smart enough to know this, which simply confirms you aren’t doing them because you are misguided or because you needed someone to explain what an average is and how you work one out, you are doing this because you are a troll.

I didn't make any of it up.


I didn't count Magic weekends "home" attendances for the RL clubs, so I instead, removed the double header attendance from Sarries and Wasps.....it still showed how poorly RL clubs stand globally in attendance stakes. 'EVENT" games, like the stand alone Wembley Saracens game or the stand alone Boxing day games are regular season single game evens that those clubs gamble on getting gates for....they are perfectly acceptable in attendance averages.

460,000 people watched 28 games.....regardless of the insecure need to make it look like there were more, there weren't. See Williams picture of the crowd at the Aussie Fiji semi-final. Show that picture to anyone and then claim there were 67,000 people there......the white coated brigade will take you away!


Actually, I was dismissed as a troll for suggesting the RLIF/RFL could learn from the IRB/RFU.......all the other name calling is pretty much down to people getting frustrated with my negativity.


Nope....I KNOW that 460,000 people attended 26 events and 28 games of RL. I do not suffer from an insecurity complex or need to make things look bigger than they actually are......check out bills picture again and tell me about the 67,000 people there



167,000 more fans attended 2013 than did so in 2008...that is a 57% increase with an increase of games at 55%.....is there anything in this statement that isn't true? Do you seriously believe there were 67,000 in attendance for Australia v Fiji? Do you think a potential sponsor/investor in the game would believe there were 67,000 people there for the 2nd game?
You call it trolling because you don't agree with it but in reality, all it is, is a differing stand point on this and other issues.

"You can call it trolling because you don't agree with it but in reality, all it is, is a differing stand point on this and other issues".

A noble statement from gutterfax, now if only the aforementioned respected the views of others rather than constantly trying to prove that their viewpoint is the only correct/ valid one.

Being at both the Cardiff and Wembley double headers, I must say that I was a little surprised and certainly pleased that just about everybody stayed on for the 2nd matches.

At Wembley, just about everybody who had been at there for the England v New Zealand match stayed on through the half hour gap and were there for the Australia v Fiji match when it kicked off.

What did happen was that the crowd really started to thin out from about half way through the 2nd half of the Australia v Fiji match. By that time, the result was clear AND, importantly, it was ABSOLUTELY FREEZING. So the fact that people started leaving didn't surprise me at the time. Personally, I stayed right to the end - but that meant I'd been in my seat for about 5 hours in what became an icy cold stadium.