O'Loughlin misses vastly fewer tackles (percent) than McIlorum so let's put that to bed.

I do, however, accept that some of McIlorum's missed tackles are 'bounce offs' and that they can sometimes be effective.

Nevertheless, I'd take aim at McIlorum's distribution. He doesn't bend his back, looks incredibly stiff and is consequently slow out of DH - running or passing. Whatever his attributes in defence, it's points we lack in Test matches and McIlorum offers almost zero there. I'd rather we have a clever and unpredictable 9 with 3 big hitters alongside him in the middle unit than 4 big hitters with limited attacking edge out of dummy half. In any case, we'll win the middle unit contest with Burgess, Hill, Graham, etc. and *anybody* at 9 - we usually do - and so another hitman is an unnecessary luxury. Creativity is the difference between two evenly matched Test teams.

I also chuckle at Daryl Clark's status as a big game underachiever based on ... er ... one big game. Even there, I think he's being criticised for his team's performance rather than his own. McIlorum had a chance in a big game in the World Cup and was abysmal.

I took the previous posters stats that said 8% for MM and O'loughlin's is 7%, MM actually misses about 8.5% but both are a lot lower than the other players listed.

Also when did McIlorum play a big game in the World Cup? Clark's failed to show in the Cup final, the catalans game and the play off. Like you say that could have as much to do with the team in general.

I'd disagree about needing players to score, we need to be solid in defence. Limit opportunities and take chances when we can. You're not going to beat Australia in a shoot out.

I don't know, what would you rather do? Beat Australia 40-36 or lose 18-10? Obvious statement of the century coming up = to win you need to out score your opponents. And recently against Australia we seem to focus on defence rather than put any decent attacking play together. Even with defending cock ups can still be made e.g Sinfield in the World Cup.

Spot on. And the Wigan fans should try looking up a few stats on all these players and then try coming back with evidence why this statement isn't correct.

As for getting/needing quick PTB's McIlorum probably gets more than anyone thanks to the pack he's playing behind yet still can't dominate offensively, so how come being just as ordinary as anyone else with a poor PTB is an asset?

And apart from his dismal effort against Fiji in the World Cup, which also showed that his thuggery doesn't scare international players, mr "big game" doesn't exactly show up when Wigan lose - yet apparently this is enough to damn Clark.

James Roby and Daryl Clark for me.

This season more than ever, Roby has proven that he is still the best hooker we have got, proven international quality.

I've not and am not a big fan of McIllorum, so it would be Clark as the back-up/speller for me. I really think he could get at a tiring Australian/Kiwi defence late on in games with his ruck speed.

Firstly I hope Roby plays for 80 minutes, or close enough so that we don't need an out and out hooker on the bench at all. Substituting him will always take momentum out of England - as it did in the WC. He should take a leaf out of Cam Smith's book if required and work out how to take rests during the game, not by going off for 15 minutes.

Secondly, I hope Burrow isn't picked as some kind of bench option. He hasn't provided game-breaking runs from there for quite some time, and his distribution has never been good.

Thirdly, I'd like to see a solid defender with smarts behind Roby. The smartest hooker I've seen in SL (admittedly I haven't seen a huge amount) is Lunt.

Dummy running won't achieve much vs Aus, and any hooker who can't tackle shouldn't be playing anyway.

Take a breath and put down that pint of bitter



Just for starters if you have ever watched us play we don't go down the quick play of the ball scoot style rugby, haven't done for years. Now and again it might happen but we don't look for it at every opportunity.

I don't need to look at the stats either, they only tell part of the story. Ive seen us in enough big games to know that when Mcilorum is playing he makes a massive difference and the tougher the game the better he is.

Your judging Mcilorum off a 20 minute spell against Fiji yet having a pop at people saying Clark isn't ready yet off the challenge cup final? Talk about stones, glass houses and all that

I'd like to bet that you have and are embarrassed by what you see. He simply isn't a leader in any category (except perhaps disciplinary referrals). Stats aren't everything but you can bet that his fan club would be belting them out if they could find anything favourable about him at all. As I said evidence please. As you prefer to make grandiose unsubstantiated claims instead, I presume he made a "massive difference" against Cas in the Cup game? Or wasn't that tough enough so he was kind enough to let choker Clark have his day in the sun?

Quote ="Erik the not red"I'd like to bet that you have and are embarrassed by what you see. He simply isn't a leader in any category (except perhaps disciplinary referrals). Stats aren't everything but you can bet that his fan club would be belting them out if they could find anything favourable about him at all. As I said evidence please. As you prefer to make grandiose unsubstantiated claims instead, I presume he made a "massive difference" against Cas in the Cup game? Or wasn't that tough enough so he was kind enough to let choker Clark have his day in the sun? '" So you pick the one poop or bust game in the last 2 years that we have lost where the whole team stunk the place out. Very selective there Look at the Challenge cup games last season. Look at the Playoffs last season. Watch the playoffs this season. He is a big part of a multiple trophy winning side and if you watch all the big games Wigan play well in you will see him playing a big role. Proven quality player and if you ask him nicely he might show you his jewels to prove it Read the article below just to see what his coach thinks of him. www.wigantoday.net/sport/wigan-w ... -1-6626497

Quote ="Erik the not red"I'd like to bet that you have and are embarrassed by what you see. He simply isn't a leader in any category (except perhaps disciplinary referrals). Stats aren't everything but you can bet that his fan club would be belting them out if they could find anything favourable about him at all. As I said evidence please. As you prefer to make grandiose unsubstantiated claims instead, I presume he made a "massive difference" against Cas in the Cup game? Or wasn't that tough enough so he was kind enough to let choker Clark have his day in the sun? '" So you pick the one poop or bust game in the last 2 years that we have lost where the whole team stunk the place out. Very selective there Look at the Challenge cup games last season. Look at the Playoffs last season. Watch the playoffs this season. He is a big part of a multiple trophy winning side and if you watch all the big games Wigan play well in you will see him playing a big role. Proven quality player and if you ask him nicely he might show you his jewels to prove it Read the article below just to see what his coach thinks of him. www.wigantoday.net/sport/wigan-w ... -1-6626497

He is an excellent superleague club player but he is not international class I am afraid.
He struggles at international level because he is fixed to a club structure, the top international sides nullify his effect quite easily.
Roby is world class, is no longer a scooter and has quite a broad variety of play patterns, Clarke is still work in progress and should replace Roby in a couple of years.

By that logic there will be no Wigan players in the squad then.

Trouble with this partnership is that smith will be at a loose end as Widdop will run the show as he did for St George, far better kicking game than smith as well.
I would play Widdup and Tomkins in the halfs, one as creator and one as a runner.

I like Danny McGuire.
I think, more than any other half in SL, he is a lad who plays with his head up and constantly looks for the right move, whether it be a player retreating slowly, the defence numbering up wrong, etc. Many other halves seem driven to run the training ground moves no matter what.

I think you are correct, we don,t need any of them , O'Loughlin is more adaptive perhaps.

James Roby is the only one of the 3 players in question to be world class so he'll go.

I saw Clark at LP last week and he looked shot and way off the pace so I would take McILorum as back up and a good variation to Roby's style.

Roby can play 80 minutes at a freakishly high work rate and quality which gives you the option of another forward on the bench to overpower the Aussie pack.

I'd take all three to be honest as if Roby gets hurt you need two players to replace him.

James Roby is pure class and he proved it in the WC. In the first game he was superb and he is certainly the main choice and has been one of the best players in SL (again) this season.

I would play him for the 80mins.

I'm sure all this talk about McIlorum was said pre-World Cup and he was a massive disappointment. Imo he's had his chance and when people talk about how hard he hits then that says it all for me. He's not an international standard hooker. Far from it. Though he's a good SL player and suits wigan well.

I'm not sure Clark is quite ready yet. He needs to develop his game and he will do that at warrington as he matures.

I'd go for Lunt. I think he's an excellent hooker and would back Roby up if he's injured well

[url=http://www.totalrl.com/super-league-opta-index-team-season/OPTA Stats[/url are saying what most of us are thinking - James Roby is immense.

A season score of 724.75. That's a big jump up from the next best of Liam Farrell(632) and two guys touted as Man Of Steel contenders Jamie Peacock (61icon_cool.gif and Chris Hill (563).

Are Australia or New Zealand selecting two Hookers in their 17?

You wonder why England are third in a three Horse race.
Behind the times.

Clark and Roby.

Roby is a no brainer. Head and shoulders above everyone else. I would take Clark as back up.

MM is just the latest in a long line of stupidly overated wigan players.

Regards

King James

Before the WC, I was saying that MM had staked a good claim to get a run in the side.

I was at the Fiji game, he had very little impact for me. Did not do anything massively wrong from what I recall, but I did not see any great disribution or fearsome tackling.

It's always a tough call as GB/England sides always split fans along loyalties to club men.

Do I like MM? No.
Would I have him at Saints? No
Would I give him one more whirl at international level before shutting that door? Maybe

Fiji was a damp squib for him, but one match does not test a player. A full test series will let us know if he is decent enough at that level.

I don't need a full test series to tell me that James Roby for 80 minutes is a better bet than James Roby + A N Other

He's light years ahead of MM

My point is that we know Roby will be fine, but we have to take another player and I would be tempted to take MM as he has only had one shot at international level. Yes he did not impress, but one match or part of a match is not enough to consign him to the bin of international RL.

We did that far too often in the past with our halfbacks.

He does bring something to Wigan, whilst he is not at Roby's level, if Roby was to be injured we would need another 80 minute player and to me that would be MM.


Can I go wash now.

Roby and Lunt