You've kind of summed up my point there, Is Charnley a better player than Jerry simply off the back of his scoring record ? and i mean all round player not just at putting a ball over the line when the hard work has been done for him ?

As for Burgess, yes he had a good season but after just 1 is he a better player than McGillvary for example ?
That's part of my issue - if you have a great 1st or 2nd season at a top club you tend to get picked for England regardless of how others who have been performing as good or better for years are doing.
If a youngster at a less fancied club has a storming star to his career he can't be picked for England simply because 'he's inexperienced' or 'still learning' but yet that rule doesn't seem to apply to the likes of Burgess/Makinson/Percival etc due to their club stature - By the way, all the ones i have mentioned are very good players and i am using them as an example to my point.

Josh Charnley
T TA TK MT MI TB AT C M AG CB DR DG E FT G MG OF P
2012 31 3 154 25 21 57 3 357 2826 7.92 30 28 0 25 0 56 39 4 26 games
2013 34 7 181 34 22 75 4 383 3471 9.06 35 28 0 37 0 11 4 9 7 25 games
2014 19 2 107 19 17 37 3 208 1814 8.72 18 11 0 19 0 0 0 5 7 16 games

Jermain McGilvery
2012 9 1 79 3 25 49 7 259 2345 9.05 16 8 0 15 0 0 0 3 4 20 games
2013 19 2 120 6 27 54 7 328 2941 8.97 20 14 0 21 0 0 0 8 5 24 games
2014 20 1 137 7 27 68 4 291 2624 9.02 26 10 0 24 0 0 0 10 5 24 games

Joe Burgess
2014 17 6 79 8 15 55 5 248 2639 10.64 27 38 0 38 0 0 0 11 3

so in the last 3 seasons McGilvery has missed 79 of 336 tackles (22.6%) Charnley missed 60 of 442 (13.6%)

you speak of hard yards Mcgilvery has 32 dummy half runs, Charnley 67. JC has 948 (14.15 per game) carries, JM 878(12.91 per game)

Clean breaks 83 JC, 62 JM. Tackle Busts 169 JC (2.52 per game) 171 JM (2.51 per game)

JC has 8111 meters (8.56/carry), JM 7910 meters (9.01m/carry)

the only real area where JM has a large lead is in errors. Tackling, try's, assists, carries, clean breaks all massively in JC favour, tackle busts very even, meters per carry has JM 45cm further.

so the above assertion that a player just putting the ball down over the line can certainly not be applied to JC, who is a much more active player than JM. Charnley is certainly a player that does a lot of the unnoticed work (Wigan were the first team to have their outside backs running the ball up on tackle 1, 2 and 3 and JC was always first to stick his hand up.

As for you saying is Burgess a better player than McGilvery after 1 season, the answer is simple. Yes. he is one hell of a player. In his rookie year he was putting up some exceptional numbers, 10.64 average gain! 27 clean breaks, nearly 4x more dummy half runs than Mcgilvery. 18.9% miss percentage is a little high, but still lower than the 22.6% of JM.

I mean this is really cut and dry, you seem to have the wrong impression about Charnley, it is easy to think he is simply a pretty boy that puts the ball down, but that is completely wrong.

the point is, just because a certain player plays in a better team doesn't mean that a player from that team is neccesarily a better player than a player from another club just because plays in the same position .

is Jon Wilkin a better half back than Danny Brough or Terry Campese for example? clearly not but yet it seems that because he plays for a team who are better than Brough or Campese's teams then that means he's the better player?

i see the point Daz is making, and i see Jimlav's point, but Charnley and Mcgilvary are different players with different attributes, but Charnley will always be regarded as the better player because of his club.

That, and the fact that he probably is a better a player. I like McGilvery but he's not as good as any of the wingers picked in front of him last year. He's quite a bit older than Charnley as well.

I'm not suggesting Jerry should be picked for England above anyone else i was just using him and other players as an example of my point, like i have said i think all those players i've named are very good players in their own right...

Don't disagree with that and he admitted himself he had a shocker. He was having a relatively poor season until the last 2 games where he has played out of his skin and back to his best, albeit against poor opposition. Needs to continue that form to the end of the season and he'll retain his #4 jersey. His defence is usually his strongest attribute. Remember an incredible try saver on Greg Inglis last year.

Whatever that peasant SLS said about running a natural centres line was just a load of garbage though.

Still playing for Wentworthville Magpies a down to play on the wing this coming weekend .

Sorry, only just seen your post.

I realise it's a futile exercise discussing the finer points of the sport with a Wiganer but what the hell.

Sarginson does not run a centre's line. He has two modes: crabbing across field or taking the space from his winger. Wiganers point to his stats but the truth is they're hugely exaggerated by Wigan's dominance of using their outside three for metres on early tackles. You can get away with that in SL. A glance at his Grand Final stats for instance imply he had a great game but the context of it is that he barely threatened despite that flank being up against LMS at centre and Percival shifted to the wing. LMS was able to control him in threatening positions with ease precisely because he is incapable of holding his centre. It's no good making 100 easy metres on exit sets when you can't hold a line against a second rower at 3.

Of course, he's relatively new to the role and fared well in the internationals so there's clearly talent there. However, he is simply nowhere near the natural centre that Percival is. Percival naturally holds his man in the same way Paul Newlove once did; it's hard to define but just enough to take the outside shoulder but not enough to take the winger's space. It results constantly in the winger coming in and a centre with good hands putting his winger in for a walk in. Percival's handling, decision making and timing are superb for a young lad. I realise stats aren't allowed but have a glance at the scoring ratio for the winger on Percival's side in the games he's been their centre. It's brilliant and it isn't because of a dominance on using outside threes on early tackles or from deep. Saints use their backs in the conventional manner: generally 3rd/4th tackle set plays. Still, Percival's stats are exemplary and beyond all on a game by game ratio. As I said earlier, he's 20 years old and in his first real full season. As a Saints fan but more importantly, as a British RL fan, it's marvellous to watch a proper centre.

Britain produces centres like this like rocking horses produce . Obviously not credited across the league as of yet but they'll see it soon enough.

Most NRL clubs do it too: Vatuvei, Uate, Croker, Naqama, etc etc. It's hardly a discredited SL tactic.

Love how SLS is trying to make the most basic on centre play sound so advanced people wouldn't understand. If you want an example of it watch Ryan halls try for England v Aus in the 4 nations just gone.

Next SLS will be trying to claim the rest of us would not be able to understand the concept of the scooting hooker!

Sargison did well enough last year to be given a shot again. He also did what far too few players picked for England do - play better than expected.

Just to show I'm not biased because he plays for Wigan, Charnley OTOH was exposed - again - as simply not physical enough for internationals.

There's a "new" player on the block, who may have played centre.

Must be worth a punt on the recently signed pension seeking crock Gidley! ( he could have an " home nations" relative) and who really cares if he has already played for the Aussies, it not that there's a hard and fast rule anymore who plays for who at international level

Wire certainly rate him compared to other "talent" they have developed

Warrington have been developing young players and thrusting them into first team action on a regular basis.....that's if you read the Leeds board of the Tony Smith fan club who think he can do no wrong.

Can't believe no-ones mentioned Kris Welham yet. Head and shoulders above any centre this season.

It's the way you tell 'em!

Leaving aside the question - maybe SLS has just got the brains and the inclination to do what almost everyone else these days on message boards either can't or won't: argue his case in detail so others can grasp what he's saying fully instead of spewing out Twitteresque-length decrees which, despite lacking all context and substance, are delivered with all the certainty of Moses laying down the Ten Commandments.

Exactly Muggy.

Some dimwit didn't understand the terminology used and SLS explained it perfectly.

And just for the record, it is a myth that international selections are from the top teams. The champions had no representation for England in the four nations. Paranoid on this forum!

The point you are making is silly. I don't think there's anyone in the country who thinks EVERY SINGLE PLAYER at the most successful clubs is demonstrably "better" than his opposite number at Huddersfield.

However, successful clubs are ... well ... successful. Unless you are suggesting Saints, Wigan, Leeds etc. win by magic or bribery or whatever - you have to conclude these clubs possess some kind of superiority in playing staff. Which means any national coach must automatically assume the very real liklihood that player X operating in position Y at, say, Leeds is a better option than his opposite number at Huddersfield.

To deny this truth from the outset is every bit as foolish as the error you keep accusing others of making.



Was Jerry McGillvary kidnapped at gunpoint and forced to sign a contract with Huddersfield? Of course not. He joined the club with open eyes and knew from the outset that given Huddersfield's lack of success he'd have to not only equal the feats of his peers at the top four but exceed them. He hasn't done this. Or would you have us believe that an English coach desperately attempting to be the first man to break the forty-odd year Australian hoodoo would rather LOSE THE MATCH selecting a player from the top four than WIN IT (thus sealing his place in history, enjoying countless career spin-offs, possibly even a Knighthood) by playing a better man from Huddersfield?

Watkins on 1 side (assuming he hasn't forgot his qualities once Leeds get him off the wing). Shenton on the other.

At least we have a few choices we can argue over now in the threequarters (and full back). Not so long ago - when Tony Smith was coach to be precise the options were frighteningly bad 1-5.

True, that.

Lee Smith- -shudder!

Ade Gardner - shudder!

Bias perhaps, but I haven't seen a better classic centre than Percival knocking around sl.

He'll be comfortably the best centre in the league within 12 months barring injury IMO and I wouldn't swap him for anyone, including Watkins.

A real pleasure to watch, a classy craftsman of a centre. Hope the NRL leave him alone but I doubt it.

In my Humble opinion the best we've got available are

Watkins
Reed
Percival
Wardle
Atkins
Bridge
Sarginson
Shenton
Cudjoe

I'm not too bothered about Percival playing for England just yet. Granted, he probably deserves a run in either the team or the squad. But he's still very young and has a lot more development in him before he reaches his peak.

I do agree with a lot of the statements about him, tho. Very reminiscent of Paul Newlove in his style of play. Just like Newy you give him the outside at your peril. Great fend. Great body swerve. Rock solid defence (which is something Newlove was always criticised for - despite the fact that he missed fewer tackles than any British centre I've seen since Gary Connolly).

Another one of Radford's master-strokes, turning a 2013 SL dream team player into a not wanted loanee at Donny, at pretty much any other club could have progressed on, super naturally talented centre now adrift behind a lot of established Parramatta backs. He's scored a few tries for the Magpies though.