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| Quote ="GUBRATS"Essentially yes , at that level there isn't necessarily the need to relegate
Obviously all dependant on if the amateur club wants to become professional
So no real issue , just mischief making to suggest it'"
I agree and understand that 'our' co correspondent was probably having a casual prod on their keyboard for a bit of close season sport
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| Realistically teams and fans of those teams know at the start of the season that they probably won't win anything so just because when it comes to the 8s they don't really stand a chance of getting in the top 4 shouldn't come as a surprise and shouldn't be seen as unfair. There are always good teams and worse teams and that's the way it is. Better recruitment and finding a better coach is what people should be bemoaning for why their club has no real chance of the top 4, not the system.
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| Quote ="Psychedelic Casual"Realistically teams and fans of those teams know at the start of the season that they probably won't win anything so just because when it comes to the 8s they don't really stand a chance of getting in the top 4 shouldn't come as a surprise and shouldn't be seen as unfair. There are always good teams and worse teams and that's the way it is. Better recruitment and finding a better coach is what people should be bemoaning for why their club has no real chance of the top 4, not the system.'"
The problem isn't that not all clubs can win, that much is obvious. The problem is that whole section of the season is utterly pointless and it's a very long season.
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"The problem isn't that not all clubs can win, that much is obvious. The problem is that whole section of the season is utterly pointless and it's a very long season.'"
Like i said in an earlier post, there will be years when it will be far tighter between teams in the super 8's and people will be saying how great it is and we will have some great matches as sides slug it out to make the play off positions.It's a shame we have had it cut and dry for the first couple of seasons of this format, with teams 5-8 already cut adrift, but i feel given time people may have a different view.
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| Quote ="Biff Tannen"Like i said in an earlier post, there will be years when it will be far tighter between teams in the super 8's and people will be saying how great it is and we will have some great matches as sides slug it out to make the play off positions.It's a shame we have had it cut and dry for the first couple of seasons of this format, with teams 5-8 already cut adrift, but i feel given time people may have a different view.'"
It's simple maths that it will be rare for that to happen. There are relatively very few permutations of results that will create that situation. Not only that but because they only play each other those few permutations narrow massively every game of the super 8s.
It is a convoluted and competitively unfair system put in place to try and manufacture 'jeopardy' that will fail to do so except in relatively rare circumstances.
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| all team have 23 games up until the split into the 8's. If you are in the super 8's vying to make the top 4 but are 10+ points behind the leaders then the team only have themselves to blame...not the system.
If they had performed better in at least 5 of the games they lost they would be closer to the top, if you start again from scratch for the super 8's you then devalue the previous 23 games and it wont be long before teams who have made the 8's with games to spare would rest players and coast......
Not every team in a 12 team league can win the title....there will always be dead games in a league system whatever that may be....it's just making sure you are at the pointed end of the stick when the split comes
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| They could up the ante a little by awarding 3 points for a win in the super 8s. This would at least prolong the illusion that 8th could become 4th.
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| Quote ="pie.warrior"all team have 23 games up until the split into the 8's. If you are in the super 8's vying to make the top 4 but are 10+ points behind the leaders then the team only have themselves to blame...not the system.
If they had performed better in at least 5 of the games they lost they would be closer to the top, if you start again from scratch for the super 8's you then devalue the previous 23 games and it wont be long before teams who have made the 8's with games to spare would rest players and coast......
Not every team in a 12 team league can win the title....there will always be dead games in a league system whatever that may be....it's just making sure you are at the pointed end of the stick when the split comes'"
The point is that this system exacerbates that.
It's all very well saying that team needed to perform better, but every game that team wins is a game another team loses. It's only a few specific run of results that can possibly produce a situation that keeps it competitive.
We have extended the length of the competition but for the majority of teams the majority of times the majority of those games are dead rubbers.
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"The point is that this system exacerbates that.
It's all very well saying that team needed to perform better, but every game that team wins is a game another team loses. It's only a few specific run of results that can possibly produce a situation that keeps it competitive.
We have extended the length of the competition but for the majority of teams the majority of times the majority of those games are dead rubbers.'"
It's not the majority of teams which have deadrubber games, the majority of games in the S8s mean something. The only games which are deadrubber games are the ones played between teams who can't mathematically make the top 4 (eg Widnes vs Wakefield this season) and even they still have pride and finishing position to play for. Games such as Hull vs Wakefield in the S8s are far from being dead rubber for one of the teams (had Wakefield won then Warrington would have been awarded the LLS a week earlier).
The teams who find themselves in the middle 8 need to concentrate for all of their games so they have no deadrubber games. Roughly 10% of all the games during the super 8s this year had less meaning, I don't think that's too bad
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"
but every game that team wins is a game another team loses. '"
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| Quote ="bentleberry"It's not the majority of teams which have deadrubber games, the majority of games in the S8s mean something. The only games which are deadrubber games are the ones played between teams who can't mathematically make the top 4 (eg Widnes vs Wakefield this season) and even they still have pride and finishing position to play for. Games such as Hull vs Wakefield in the S8s are far from being dead rubber for one of the teams (had Wakefield won then Warrington would have been awarded the LLS a week earlier).
The teams who find themselves in the middle 8 need to concentrate for all of their games so they have no deadrubber games. Roughly 10% of all the games during the super 8s this year had less meaning, I don't think that's too bad'"
From the point of view if Wakefield and Widnes all their games were dead rubbers and as we went on Cas and then Les Catalans were realistically out of the race, pretty early too. We had 8 teams playing a round Robin so 4 of them could decide who played at home. The season ended with 20 points between 4th and 8th and 9pts between 4th and 5th.
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"From the point of view if Wakefield and Widnes all their games were dead rubbers and as we went on Cas and then Les Catalans were realistically out of the race, pretty early too. We had 8 teams playing a round Robin so 4 of them could decide who played at home. The season ended with 20 points between 4th and 8th and 9pts between 4th and 5th.'"
Meanwhile in 'progressive school sports day land' where there are no losers and little consequence for performance and no ones feelings get hurt, everything is absolutely fine I think that the majority would soon tire of that particular type of dead rubber if they had to put up with it week in week out?
Of course you know this
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| Quote ="Uncle Rico"Meanwhile in 'progressive school sports day land' where there are no losers and little consequence for performance and no ones feelings get hurt, everything is absolutely fine I think that the majority would soon tire of that particular type of dead rubber if they had to put up with it week in week out?
Of course you know this'" What on earth are you talking about?
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"What on earth are you talking about?'"
I think you should ask yourself the same question from time to time it was you that stretched the thread Super 8's to relegation from Championship 1 and potential oblivion
FWIW it was trying to make some sense of your 'for every winner there is a loser' piece of wisdom/dead rubber argument so I will leave it there thanks on the understanding that my initial point was meant to reflect that I was pleased that Leigh had the opportunity of getting promoted after putting in a bit of effort over a number of years and also a fair minded post from a KR fan saying pretty much the same thing
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| At the risk of (but who cares) repeating what I have touted over & over ....
There are too many games in a SL Season & not enough Internationals, therefore to alleviate this issue & avoid the potential of rewarding a season of mediocrity with a Grand Final, this should happen ....
Top 4 go straight to Semi-Finals, P1 v P4 & P2 v P3.
Winners to GF.
Middle 4 play in the Dead Rubber Cup P5 v P8 & P6 v P7
Winners play curtain raiser for GF in the Blue Peter Sticky Back Plastic Shield.
Bottom 4 Join Top 4 Championship for Q8's as now but with no MPG
P9 > P12 Qualify.
Overall, a reduction of games & create a space for an extra International & training camp.
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| Quite amazing that they don't have any ' dead rubber ' games in the NRL
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| Quote ="Uncle Rico"I think you should ask yourself the same question from time to time it was you that stretched the thread Super 8's to relegation from Championship 1 and potential oblivion
FWIW it was trying to make some sense of your 'for every winner there is a loser' piece of wisdom/dead rubber argument so I will leave it there thanks on the understanding that my initial point was meant to reflect that I was pleased that Leigh had the opportunity of getting promoted after putting in a bit of effort over a number of years and also a fair minded post from a KR fan saying pretty much the same thing'" I didn't make some philosophical argument regarding the nature of winning. It is a mathematical argument about the inherently rare set of results which can produce a competitive super 8s.
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| Quote ="GUBRATS"Quite amazing that they don't have any ' dead rubber ' games in the NRL'"
Did the NRL introduce a convoluted structure with competitive unfairness with the aim of minimizing dead rubbers?
The Super 8s are as they were described by an SL chairman earlier this year, a commercial disaster without any merits at all.
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"Did the NRL introduce a convoluted structure with competitive unfairness with the aim of minimizing dead rubbers?
The Super 8s are as they were described by an SL chairman earlier this year, a commercial disaster without any merits at all.'"
Of course a Super League chairman said that, he doesn't want to loose access to his precious old boys club that is SL.
Several years of franchising resulting in more and more "dead rubbers" year after year. How many season did Wakefield, Hull KR etc have nothing to play for after August ?
Are you really so arrogant that you think teams shouldn't have to justify their place in the elite league?
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"competitive unfairness.'"
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"I didn't make some philosophical argument regarding the nature of winning. It is a mathematical argument about the inherently rare set of results which can produce a competitive super 8s.'"
I'll apologise for giving you some credit that you didn't perhaps deserve then if that is the case and for those outside the top four last year please try and win more games next season as it might just make the whole season more interesting
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| Quote ="Uncle Rico"I'll apologise for giving you some credit that you didn't perhaps deserve then if that is the case and for those outside the top four last year please try and win more games next season as it might just make the whole season more interesting'" If you are going to patronise, make sure you understand the point first. Otherwise you will end up looking stupid. Because had you understood, you would be aware that what you are asking for can only happen in a very rare set of circumstances. Which is the point that was made. Which you missed. Which was then explained to you. Which you missed again.
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| Quote ="Nat (Rugby_Aholic)"Of course a Super League chairman said that, he doesn't want to loose access to his precious old boys club that is SL.
Several years of franchising resulting in more and more "dead rubbers" year after year. How many season did Wakefield, Hull KR etc have nothing to play for after August ?'" I don't believe that 'having something to play for' through some convoluted, manufactured, 'jeopardy' helps anyone. It is a lazy and failing substitute for actually doing the hard work necessary to build the game.
Quote Are you really so arrogant that you think teams shouldn't have to justify their place in the elite league?'" I think everyone should justify their place in the elite league, in a wide range of areas.
Relying on the bounce of a ball to decide which clubs make SL has left us with the team which is promoted not bothering to run their own academy, the team which was relegated not bothering to run their own academy, the team which survived the million pound game not bothering to run their own academy. And of the 4 clubs from the lower league making the middle 8s last year, one is in administration right now, the other has been surviving on handouts and begging bowls all year, and the other is in so much financial strife it has needed to ask its players to all take a pay cut.
It also left us with 2 of our 3 pro/semipro leagues as absolute walkovers which saw the teams who finished first in league 1 and the championship lose a grand total of 1 game between them in the regular season.
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"If you are going to patronise, make sure you understand the point first. Otherwise you will end up looking stupid. Because had you understood, you would be aware that what you are asking for can only happen in a very rare set of circumstances. Which is the point that was made. Which you missed. Which was then explained to you. Which you missed again.'"
What rare set of circumstances ?
You don't half talk some complete bolloxs , you do realise everybody just thinks you're a muppet
Declaring for every winner there is a loser like its some insightful statement nobody had realised beforehand
Try googling ' competitive unfairness ' ? Another Smokey bull5hit invention
Then again at least you give us all a laugh
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| Quote ="GUBRATS"What rare set of circumstances ?
'"
a competitive 8's. If you weren't (pretending to be) stupid, you would know that.
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