He hasn't won SL with HKR yet

Was that the Lions tour that attracted 192,972 fans to 3 test matches? Maybe they should have had a double header?
It's a wonder that people around the world other than in Australia seem to prefer watching it? Strange really given the only other things Aussies lead the world in is getting Aboriginals drunk so they can steal their land and Shooting Kangaroos?....oh, almost forgot....and moving the goalposts in competitions to suit their needs above everyone else's.

I think on the whole Union is a dreadful spectacle to watch, that's not because I'm bitter but because it simply doesn't do it for me. Still far rather watch it than football which blows both codes out of the water for popularity.

Quoting attendances figures doesn't highlight one codes strengths on the field over the others much in the same way that pop music, reality TV, football and fast food are so popular; are these really the best products out there?

Seems to be some posters are absolutely fine with league being slated (yes we know it's far from perfect) on here, but any anti union comments are seen to be an inferiority complex.

Ben Morgan the England RU no.8 is shorter by 2 inches, the same weight & age as SB, he's considered to be one of the top English forwards.
SB would run rings around him in every single dept.

On Saturday against Australia BM made 9 runs, the most of any player (out of a total 50 for the whole team) covering 31 metres (total 203!) and made 12 tackles with a massive ONE pass (out of 71 team total).
Australia passed 3 times more, made three times as many metres and 3 times as many runs, beat more men, made more clean breaks made 3 times LESS tackles BUT crucially turned the ball over more often & were beaten.
By rights Australia should have walked this, they were the more attractive to watch, broke tackles at will, got the ball out wide yet England played rugby union whereas Australia played rubgy.
SB will be wasted even if he gets in the England squad, they play dire, boring uninteresting rugby but tactically it will win them games..Lancaster can only play one way and the results speak for themselves. I'd rather watch the French or Welsh national teams anyday.

South Africa or New Zealand will win the RUWC and SB will come back to league a richer and wiser man in a few years time. IF he decides to stay in union it'll be for the money and nothing else because deep down if he really has that desire as an athlete that he shows playing league every day a little bit of him will die whilst freezing his b'll'cks off in the centres..

Why else would anyone bring up a bigger and more popular code and try and make fun of it if they were confident and secure in their own beliefs?


I have no doubt whatsoever that Ben Morgan would out scrummage and out muscle Burgess in the loose. He is skilled at 'getting in the way" of opposition ball as well as "stealing it". He is no less capable of tackling than Burgess, but he is probably far more astute at winning line-out ball, so it may be that "offloading" might be the main area where Burgess has the edge, although the wild inside effort to nobody at all at the weekend shows that Sam may still have a bit to learn on that front. I suspect your ignorance of what a back row forward does in Union may actually cloud your judgement here.....either that or it's highlighting your insecurity.

Burgess has gone to a game where "different" skills are required....comparing what Union forwards do to League is like comparing a video recorder with a toffee apple.....pointless.

When a player, League or Union, hits the defensive line and skilfully gets his head and shoulders through the tackle while keeping his hands free to offload the ball yet can't find a team mate to pass to.

I would suggest that in either sport it is his team mates who have "a bit to learn"!

Yeah, knew I would never make it when my coach said I didn't get in the way enough.

It's a different skill alright!

True, but Sam will need to understand that his team mates are no longer spread out in a line across the pitch any more....although there are two more to aim at

...



Getting in the way in union is the same as slowing the PTB down in League.........crack how to do it and get away with it and you have a better chance of winning. The Kangaroos are very good at it in League and Richie McCaw is very good for the All Blacks.....both countries sit ranked #1 in their sports......go figure?

Because it's current news, a former RL star made his debut in the game, whilst at the same time people are allowed to also think the games crap. I'm sure as someone who's 'confident and secure in their own beliefs' you'll never have 'made fun' of anything you dislike.

They could be stacked up 9 high in a human pyramid while riding motor bikes like the White Helmets but at least one of them needs to have the skills and awareness to push up around the ball carrier.

Indeed they are. Problem is, the ability to discern what is a key skill in Union compared to a key skill in League is somewhat important if you're going to try and look clever.
I too think Union is slow and ponderous compared to League, but that doesn't make it a game that all League players would excel at....if that were the case, then the RFU would have the entire England RL squad signed up tomorrow, as would the All Blacks be replaced by the Kiwis. Both Unions could afford to buy their league counterparts many times over, but they don't.

Why do you think that is?

I believe that one of the main reasons is that Union 'skills'(sic) are not those that can be learnt quickly....specifically in the forwards. Most successful league to Union converts I know of have played in the backs in Union.......because league players to a man all know how to pass of either foot well, step and have a good turn of speed. All three of those attributes, vital in league, are less important in a union pack, specifically the front 5. What a forward in Union does need to have is inhuman strength.

I've tried to watch the autumn internationals but it did bore me senseless. Contested scrums are boring and the line out is so pointless. I really don't get those aspects of the game.

I do like the rucks and how you have to control the ball to keep it. I think that's a great element of their game.

What annoys me is the way they attack. There is a complete lack of depth to their offence and the only way that it seems you can break down the defence is to create an overlap through flat passing. That's boring as hell to me.

It would be interesting to ask Shaun Wane to coach the English attack. I wonder how transferable that style of rugby is. Given that they have two extra attackers surely could lead to inventive set pieces, but I have never seen that.

lol

, it isn't my ignorance, it's your ignorance of the basics of what makes a great rugby player. You insult SB by making the assumption he cannot do the 'getting in the way' or being able to work in the scrum or ball stealing or winning a line out. I've played union (not to a very high level mind nor league for that matter) but it isn't diffucult to pick up, it isn't hard to figure out the nuances of the rules, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what allows you to best your opponent at whatever it is you are doing if you have even an ounce of intelligence & dedication or are you saying that SB is thick, uneducated & cannot possibly learn??

You either have never played sport or are a bit too thick to comprehend that great sportmen can & do make changes to be great in what they do very quickly..IF they are allowed to do so. In the current England set up he'd be the best forward on the pitch but his talents would be utterly wasted in a boring ruck/maul/scrum/kick tactical game that Lancaster plays. As I said it'll win them a few games but never the ultimate prize.
And you make a point of highlighting my so called insecurity, that's truly laughable, you don't even understand human beings on a basic level yet come up with absolute nonsense like that? WTF have I got to be insecure about, WTF does me making a point about the lack of 'rugby' playing by the current England RU No.8 in comparison to the Australian team he played against last Sat and indeed the known capabilities of Sam Burgess? Insecure..FFS you really don't have a fecking clue do you..No don't even bother responding because your bilge isn't worth reading a second time.
It isn't about comparing a league forward, it's about making a comparison to a known skillset and work ethos, about how rugby isn't about just brute strength but thinking power too, something you clearly seem to lack.

You don't know a single thing about me apart from the fact I'm clearly far more intelligent and know more about human nature and understanding the mentality required to play sport successfully..you on the otherhand are a know-nowt gobe who thinks he knows something about everything when clearly your last post alone proves the complete opposite.
Smell yah later dunce boy

A key thing they need is massive strength.....not so much a skill now than just what you can do in the gym. Most RL converts have been in the backs as they are nuisances to be a RU forward that take time to learn and most RL converts have reached too old an age before catching the RU's eye. However the skill set needed in RU, whilst it might take too long for a player to pick up to make it to International level, we seen guys like Shaun Edwards and Andy Farrell who play nearly all the careers in RL gain top coaching gigs in RU. Even guys like Powell and Lowes and Betts and others were able to get coaching gigs in RU even with RL careers. That's quite telling about the skill set/level needed for RU that these guys from the 'other' code can come in and coach it ahead of guys who'll have spent full careers playing RU.

This is going to be fun.


I assume nothing. If stealing the ball or getting in the way were easy, then union would be soccer and everyone would be doing it......it isn't and it isn't!



I've played Union at the highest level and the idea of playing league scares the out of me.......but I repeat, what goes on in the tight in union isn't learnt in a day! Your idiocy in thinking "anyone could do it" only compounds your insecurity by the way....


Grand sentiments there that mean nothing. I have excelled at Union, GAA and Basketball as well as having a scholarship at a 1977 1st division soccer club turned down by my father......I know exactly what a top tier sportsman must do do adapt. Sam is a humongous human being that I have no doubt will do well at whatever he chooses, but he will only excel at union if he plays 12.


Would he f&&k.





He'd be hit once by a decent all balck and he'd be off the park for the rest of the game.......it's a different type of hit, a different type of intensity and a different type of strength needed to play union......


OK...Oh...you haven't finished...

Remember now....you're not insecure and I know nothing.....



And there we have it kids. Don't drink and post



Sam Burgess might learn how to play Union and help England win their RWC next year......at which point, it will be "League done it". If he fails, he will return to the game he knows and continue to excel, which will result in "he was bored".

Either way, thick s like you will forever hold RL back with your anti-anything-union stance.........and then blame the BBC for ignoring you











...and you claim to be more intelligent than me.......

Nobody is saying the RL ethic isn't better. Nor is anyone saying union is a better game....it's just that to date, league players = union backs and no matter what you say, until the actual facts say different, I am correct.......union forward play is not something you learn overnight.

Did you watch the game against Australia at the weekend? The Aussies were a joy to watch when they had the ball. Their style of attacking play was very similar to league, with some great runaraounds, dummy runners and cut out passes.
Every time they threw the ball out wide they ate up the yards. In my opinion they really didn't deserve to lose the game, but I suppose a more seasoned union spectator might say that an expansive passing game might look pretty, but it won't always win you the game.

Aside from the Kiwis and SA, the international game seems to be more about gaining penalties and taking 3 points, rather than about scoring tries.
This may be great for the Union purist but, as a spectacle, it's absolutely awful.

Unfortunately, for League fans, RU is the game of "the establishment" and therefore, it will always receive a greater level of media support, regardless of the "spectacle".
At the risk of ridicule on this forum, I can admit to enjoying the odd game, when it is played in a positive manner but, generally this is not the case and the prolonged breaks in play for scrums and lineouts, make the game a boring watch.

If league is ever to steal the media "glare", we have to improve our international game and expand the game.
Failure to do this, whether we like it or not, leaves us as nothing more than a peripheral sport, played in parts of Australia and the North of England.

A large part of the difference is also that no top level League player is built for RU scrums or rucks. RU forwards are essentially massive pushing machines designed to push from the legs and hips, with a bit of jumping of course. RL lads are built for explosive speed, agility and upper body strength - in fact an extended family member who played at Wasps for years until leaving recently for a career in the City reckons League lads actually have greater upper body power. That said, I think leg power in RL has come on a lot in the last few years, especially in the NRL with players like Michael Jennings. That doesn't mean they can push and drive like RU forwards, far from it, they're simply not conditioned for it.

If you watch a RU forward play league, they instinctively run with their heads down, ball wrapped up and looking for the floor. League forwards run head up, looking for the collision and hopefully the offload. They also tend to tackle low - a 'textbook' shoulder-to-hips tackle, whereas League players tend to hit and wrap up the chest.

Still, this myth that the mystical skills of the RU pack are impossible to learn is just that, a myth. But no-one is saying they can be picked up overnight. There are technicalities, but nothing that can't be learned with good practice and help. Sam cleaned out a ruck in anger for the first time in his life on debut, and the commentators loved it. The nuances can be learned gradually and Sam seems like a player keen to learn and not afraid or too proud to ask.

I've played both, in the pack and the backs - of course I haven't been nominated for BBC SPOTY 40 years ago like gutters apparently has - but nevertheless I know something of the differences.

knockersbump, i'm not sure whats more laughable, your rant or the fact u think SB could be the best forward for England. For a lad who detests union, you must watch a lot of it.

Meh!

having played both games as a front rower, I can tell you it is of course learnable.
The difference is while you are learning you drop your effectiveness you had in the other code until you catch up.
Doesn't mean a great player at one game will be great at the other.

If Sam played in the forwards he'd be a great 7 or 8. The problem is he is playing against people who have been doing that since they were 5 so he will miss some things.

It's a mistake to think rugby union is not learnable. Of course it is. It is just a case of what you learn when.
Right now, SB needs to learn how to ruck and how to lay the ball back when tackled. It's not hard, it's just different.
He needs to learn patterns in defence and attacking lines. He'll pick that up in a day.

If he moved to the forwards he will be an average scrummager and line out man until he gains the experience. At this stage I just don't think it is worth it.
I'd rather pick parts of the game that he will excel at, and put him there.

The no.8 often stands deep to take a long kick down field. I'd have a plan to swap him out so that he is stood there to take a ball, not unlike a RL kick off. He then gets chance to smash the line, at which he excels.
I would make sure he doesn't get caught in the forwards maul, as this takes him out of the attack and will wear him out.

For all we in RL like to scoff at the RU forwards, they are incredibly strong and weigh more than Sam. He will be able to use his impcat and speed to beat them but smashing into the forwards may be a mistake.

To me it's like saying a skier can't learn to snow board. If you have good balance and can handle the speed, you can learn, it's just different.
And in the opposite way, a boxer is big and tough but put him in the ring with a wrestler he needs to use his speed not his strength, otherwise he will just be flattened, in a non entertaining kind of way but an effective way.

McDonalds is the most popular restaurant in the world, its still e! Hype over substance just about sums up RU perfectly.

I blame London.... just saying

I once had the misfortune of watching part of a Rugby Union game live, it was a double header at Harlequins (Quins RL v Huddersfield) and the union game was on 1st, i swear the 'play' never moved from the same 10 square metres of grass for 15 minutes...scrum/kick/line thrown thingy/....Scrum/Kick/line throw.....continuously, i think only 4 players actually touched the ball, how on earth people can sit and watch that i will never know ..awful game !!