Sorry Hudds fans, but the only real changes I'd make are Griffin and Brown. On the other hand, I'd replace them with Crabtree and Robinson, with Lunt coming onto the bench.

When you consider how poor we were in the first half, where everyone made mistakes, it wasn't that bad a result. We just needed a little more composure. The thing that always gets me about NZ is how much stronger they always look. Nature/nurture? Or, do we just lack confidence?

Think Shenton is really starting to come of age now. If Atkins is injured, though, lets get Gleeson out there!!! Quickly.

I thought Kevin Brown had a decent turn of pace, he looked like he was running in cement for Widdops try. Danny Mcguire would have been under the sticks there and we'd have kicked the goal and had all the momentum

Widdop 6, did ok, one big error but defended well, covered in centre well as well.
Goulding 5 didnt offer much, worked hard but never looked a threat
Shenton 7 would have been an 8 or 9 had he played as well in the 1st half as he did the 2nd
Atkins 4 was poor while he was on, poor defence on 2nd NZ try
Briscoe 6 - good game, good player, looked dangerous and looks like a player who can make something special happen
Brown 5 im not sure what he offered
S Tomkins 7, good game, looked much better at FB than at SO
Fielden 4, didnt win the collision, lost vital ball, gave away penalties. Poor
Roby 7 see Shenton, poor first half, fantastic 2nd
Graham 8 ran well, good game, but looked knackered by the end, asked to do too much again.
Ellis 6 decent, didnt do anything particularly wrong nor did he do anything great. He is much better than this and we need him to show it.
Burgess 7 made good ground on the edges, good hits on defence, nothing amazing but did the basics well
O'Loughlin 9 defended well in the 1st half, did well on offence when given the space in the 2nd
Robinson 6 didnt do too badly, didnt really offer much though
Griffin 4 looked out his depth
Westwood 6, would be a 7 but for his discipline. Get rid of his brain farts and he is a quality player, he can sometimes be a liability
J Tomkins 5- didnt do anything to catch the eye, didnt seem to play a lot of minutes.

Mcnamara 6. Didnt get hammered which is a positive, But his big calls Griffin, Robinson, Brown Fielden didnt really pull it out of the bag for him. We looked knackered by the end of it, Griffin and Tomkins didnt seem to play a whole heap of minutes which leaves me to wonder how much further we could have pushed them with Lynch taking some of the work from Graham and Crabtree adding that impact. I think Mcnamara messed up by only having one out and out prop on the bench

Pie fan notices that Shenton has now signed for Saints....

F*cking idiots don't understand the game on here - Westwood gives away a few pens... no s**t.. he also busts the line every run and tackles at a unbelievable rate

Without getting into an argument about Westwoods ability, surely you can't believe that if a player makes good yardage and tackles well then it doesn't matter if he gives away a few penalties. A penalty is worth say 30 metres for the kick and another say 40 metres with the resulting set of 6 - and then you've got the kick to come. In any game, but particularly tight international games, penatlies are worth their weight in gold. If two players are giving a couple of penalties each per game, it will really hurt the team. Fielden's penalties particualrly stood out for me. I think you can forgive a player for one, but at international level, you can't really afford to have players give away any more than that.

Also think its worth pointing out that its the penalties when an oppositon is coming away from their line are the real frustrating ones. If you give a penalty away on your own line on the 1st tackle, its pretty worthless to the opposition (well apart from if they want to go for the two that is).

For me Tomkins needs to be full back, God knows what we will do in the halves though. Should we of taken Deacon or will Robinson be able to cut it.Brown looks too slow but with a little familiarity of Robinson it may help. With Atkins and Shenton maybe injured then we have Widdop and ? Cudjoe ? Clubb ? with Lunt coming onto the bench . The wingers both played ok so really should keep there jerseys

Why does almsot every fan need to blame other teams for England defeats? We all know they're plenty of players in the team which aren't good enough along with an awful coach. If we had a fully fit squad we'd have a great chance of challenging. At least these young lads will gain a bit of experience. The team below is what I'd like to have seen go if fit.

1.Tomkins
2.Briscoe
3.Bridge
4.Atkins
5.Hall
6.Pryce
7.Eastmond
8.Morley
9.Sinfield
10.Peacock
11.Ellis
12.Burgess
13.O'Loughlin

14.Roby
15.Graham
16.Tomkins
17.Westwood

did you not watch the game yesterday?

also don't think joel tomkin has shown anything at this level to justify his inclusion. personally i'd b picking harrison next week.

I'd go
tomkins, goulding, ellis, shenton/cudjoe, briscoe, widdop, robinson, graham, lunt, fielden, burgess, westwood, o'loughlin - roby, carvell, harrison, crabtree/griffin

Widdop 6- didnt have a bad game, made an error which led to a try but I thought he went well. Clearly talented
Goulding 6- think people are being very harsh on daz, thought he was very good- stood up well, defended well, and took alot of ball up.
Shenton 7- had a very good second half, clearly last years 4 nations has given him a wealth of experience
Atkins 3- doesnt pass, doesnt tackle very very sloppy game
Briscoe 6- felt sorry for him outside atkins, had a very good game though.
Brown 5- very poor, runs out players can't find a good pass.
Tomkins 7- was very good when at full back took the line on
Graham 7- led from the front extremely well, took a few shots but carried on
Roby 7- A very good second half, was excellent at getting away from the ruck.
Fielden 5- not his best game, needs to up it next week
Ellis 6- thought he was pretty average myself
Burgess 6- ran some good yards, needs to take more of a lead role though.
O'Loughlin 7- Took the ball up alot, defended like a trojan, made a good break.

Griffin 5- again I dont see why he was picked over big eorl
Robinson 7- had a good game, laughed at his run aswell!
Joel Tomkins 6- had a important hand in the second try a very good try, let him play his natural game on the flanks!
Westwood 7- was incredibly strong, a very good performance.

With that next week I would go

1. Sam Tomkins
2. Goulding
3. Shenton
4. Ellis
5. Briscoe
6. Widdop
7. Robinson
8. Burgess
9. Roby
10. Graham
11. Joel Tomkins
12. Westwood
13. O'Loughlin

14. Fielden
15. Crabtree
16. Lunt
17. Harrison

That has nothing to do with it, I have already defended Graham on this thread and said that I thought he was phenomenal and was one of our best players. I would have Eastmond in without a doubt if he was fit. I just want England to do well and I really couldnt care less what club players play at. Shenton's defense is just poor and he is far too greedy for a centre, one decent run doesnt change that.

Widdop - 6
Goulding - 6
Atkins - 4
Shenton - 7
Briscoe - 7
Brown - 6
Tomkins - 7
Graham - 8
Roby - 7
Fielden - 6
Ellis - 6
Burgess - 6
O'Loughlin - 7
Subs:
Griffin - 6
Robinson - 7
Tomkins - 6
Westwood - 7

Squad next week:
Widdop
Hall
Clubb (depends on Shenton)
Gleeson (again depends on Shenton)
Briscoe
Tomkins
Robinson
Graham
Roby
Crabtree
Ellis
Burgess
O'Loughlin
Subs:
Fielden
Brown
Westwood
J.Tomkins

Spot on. I dont understand the criticism he is getting from some people on here. He had a steady game and looks a solid full back with bags of potential. Great effort to get up in support for his try, shame nobody was capable of keeping up with Robinson when he 'sprinted' down field.

Which of the Pryce brothers is that on the wing? The one who plays on the wing who is clearly not good enough to play international Rugby League or the one who plays stand off who is clearly not an international Rugby League winger?

The wings yesterday of Briscoe and Goulding are better than that pair of wings... and that was a dream! (you should have had Robinson and Offiah out there)

I'd have had Fox instead of Goulding, having said that given the poor service from the halfbacks and centres it doesn't really matter who is on the wing these days.

Roby and Graham were our best players imo. Atkins was totally out of his depth, as he was against the NZM.

Pack in general matched theirs but much as I like him, Mr Brown isn't up to this standard.

Against the aussies, I'd go to keep the score respectable and hopefully, somehow, pull off a win.

The Aussies are beatable if we play like we did in the second half. If Shentons injury is as bad as they are saying i'd drop Sam to 1, Widdop into right centre and Brown and Robinson at 6 & 7. Lunt onto bench.

Our monster world beating pack looked anything but. At international level Graham needs to look at shorter stints with more aggro.

Same problems as ever in the backs - lack of creativity, not helped by having centres who think they are second rows or something - head down, run at the line, almost regardless of field position, tackle etc.

Given his inepxerience I thought Widdop held up fairly well. Whether he's a full back or stand off long term will be interesting.

I agree with this. Apart from Graham and Westwood our pack was not good as it was hyped up to be. Burgess was not as eye catching as usual. Sean O and Ellis are grafters at this level i think, not necessarily big yardage makers. I would go with Crabtree and Carvell instead of Griffin and Fielden for the next test. In my opinion these 2 props will give us more going forward. I think long term Widdop will be englands 6 with Tompkins at 1. Especially if Widdop plays 6 regularly for Melbourne next season.

I think Widdop will end up quietly being dropped from International Football.

If he is good enough then so is every english fullback in Super League.

I think it depends on how he goes at Melbourne next season. Keep reading about Melbourne wanting him to play stand off. If he can hold down a regular 1st team spot at the storm next season, and do well he will be in contention for next years tournament. I think it would not be fair write him of just yet. I know it was only one game but i saw him play against Canterbury this season for the Storm and he went really well. He has good all round attacking skills of what i have seen. He needs work on his defence (especially if he is to continue at 1). Few in SL have decent all round attacking skills. Plenty of one trick ponies in SL imo. Perhaps 6 is his best position and he will flourish there next season? I think it is too early to write of someone who does have something.

The best thing young Widdles could do would be to move back to England and play SL.

At least he would get a regular game.

He won't at the Storm.


That would benefit his international career.

Being a reserve player at Storm doesnt seem to be harming it does it...

You reckon?

He was pretty ineffective against nz from what I saw. Looked like a lack of confidence. The sort of confidence you get from experience?

Very few positives to take out of the game really. Our world class pack was pretty awful really, they failed to win the collusion and failed to control the PTB. Also, I though the work the NZ forwards were working off the ball was excellent and really confused the England defense out wide. Where as we were content to just trundle the ball up the middle of the field.

To me, England looked like a team trying not to lose rather than a team prepared to take risks to win the game. Widdop's try showed that if you give the backs enough space they are able to create something. But we didn't do that enough.

I thought both half backs were poor, and didn't really look like a combination. Tomkins tried to do too much on his own. Brown didn't do much wrong, but I can't see him having too many more games at this level as I don't think he's got enough pace. He might be the slowest stand off I've ever seen.

My team next week would be:

Cudjoe
Goulding
Briscoe
???
Hall
Tomkins
Robinson
Graham
Lunt
Burgess (we need more gramebreakers in the middle of the field)
Ellis
Westwood
Flanders

Roby
Crabtree
Fielden
Harrison