It's you that is disparaging to all things Toronto.

Do you think that newly promoted clubs (and many of the others) dont dosh out freebies.
Even if they did, many would struggle to get close to their Championship crowds - remember they have never played at home in SL.
Of course, very few come this way to see games but, perhaps you should find "Gutterfax", he'll explain to you why this isn't that critical.
Although, it's worth noting that despite very few away fans, most clubs enjoyed their highest attendance of the season when Toronto came to town.
So, Perez "bigged up" what Toronto would achieve, good on him for doing so - every club should sell themselves heavily - it's worth noting that the financial "losers" in there not being a NATV deal are...........Toronto, so what the hell is your problem.

As for players, I absolutely agree with you and every club, SL or otherwise, should be developing players.
Having said that, it's still very, very early days for a new club to develop their own, just look how long London took, 20 years ??

If you are so desperate for more English clubs in SL, why not simply advocate this, instead of anti overseas every 2 minutes.
Remember again that from your 5/6 clubs that you are so desperate to have in the top flight.
Widnes, Bradford, Leigh, Feathersone and London have all been there and also been found wanting and yet, YOU want to demote clubs who have EVERY RIGHT to be in SL.
Nothing left to say but, I'm sure that you will keep on moaning as long as you can

Quote ="Vancouver Leyther" Fact - Free tickets were given out to many kids in schools, kids organizations and sporting clubs. Fact - There was free tickets were available through sporting clubs and organizations Fact - Toronto Arrows Rugby Union club are not a success story Fact - Rugby Union is poorly organized and very poorly funded at the national and Provincial level in Canada. They are in no position to stop Rugby League growing in Canada. OK so we agree on the extensive free tickets, that's fine by me but FACT Perez promised NA Players and NA TV deals so the crowd thing is irrelevant anyway. You need to concede exactly what Toronto Wolfpack were offering the game here. This was Perez's initial explanation of what TWP offered for entry to the game here.......... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PIlV68mYc4 This was the first time he said it, he repeated it in numerous interviews after that. Superleague bosses also noted publicly what they sought from "expansion clubs", and understandably it was more players and more TV money. Toronto Wolfpack did not produce one home grown professional RL player nor one canadian dollar from a TV deal to share with SL clubs here - that would be about 10 cents per club but there wasn't even one dollar. Mate - I think Toronto Arrows may or may not be a success story, but my word they have survived and TWP have died. Whatever the dynamics of "growth" Toronto Wolfpack grew nothing, Toronto Arrows grew a Pro Canadian Rugby club full of Canadians. The more you play down the Arrows and Canadian RU the more you expose the relative failure of Toronto Wolfpack and Canadian Rugby League player development. Believe me I wanted them to grow, but the minute they ejected their canadian/american players the alarm bells rang, It was clear Argylle didn't want to build something, he just wanted to buy something. I can understand that as he's pushing 60 and would probably never see professional Canadian RL players come through.... Perez was particularly annoying when pressed, constantly excusing what he promised . He said it would take some years for quality young Canadian players to come through - kicking his own can down the road. He said the big NATV deal would come once there were "5-6 North American clubs in Superleague". But that was and is impossible as the SKY deal is lost without it being predominately English.....

Quote ="Vancouver Leyther" Fact - Free tickets were given out to many kids in schools, kids organizations and sporting clubs. Fact - There was free tickets were available through sporting clubs and organizations Fact - Toronto Arrows Rugby Union club are not a success story Fact - Rugby Union is poorly organized and very poorly funded at the national and Provincial level in Canada. They are in no position to stop Rugby League growing in Canada. OK so we agree on the extensive free tickets, that's fine by me but FACT Perez promised NA Players and NA TV deals so the crowd thing is irrelevant anyway. You need to concede exactly what Toronto Wolfpack were offering the game here. This was Perez's initial explanation of what TWP offered for entry to the game here.......... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PIlV68mYc4 This was the first time he said it, he repeated it in numerous interviews after that. Superleague bosses also noted publicly what they sought from "expansion clubs", and understandably it was more players and more TV money. Toronto Wolfpack did not produce one home grown professional RL player nor one canadian dollar from a TV deal to share with SL clubs here - that would be about 10 cents per club but there wasn't even one dollar. Mate - I think Toronto Arrows may or may not be a success story, but my word they have survived and TWP have died. Whatever the dynamics of "growth" Toronto Wolfpack grew nothing, Toronto Arrows grew a Pro Canadian Rugby club full of Canadians. The more you play down the Arrows and Canadian RU the more you expose the relative failure of Toronto Wolfpack and Canadian Rugby League player development. Believe me I wanted them to grow, but the minute they ejected their canadian/american players the alarm bells rang, It was clear Argylle didn't want to build something, he just wanted to buy something. I can understand that as he's pushing 60 and would probably never see professional Canadian RL players come through.... Perez was particularly annoying when pressed, constantly excusing what he promised . He said it would take some years for quality young Canadian players to come through - kicking his own can down the road. He said the big NATV deal would come once there were "5-6 North American clubs in Superleague". But that was and is impossible as the SKY deal is lost without it being predominately English.....

Ottawa have signed 9 English players so will the rest be Canadian ? But won’t the Canadians count as overseas so they can only have 7 anyway?

Who knows. Bottom line, as I have clearly stated (but ignored by Donny), I’d do not believe TWP should be in SL and I am sceptical that Ottawa can bring anything much to the English game. They will however continue to grow the interest in RL in Canada and grow the grass roots game if it is done right (not SL or nothing in 3 years).
Canadian Rugby League teams are an expansion of the game, but their part in UK Rugby is not for me. Just my opinion that I am happy to have people debate with me.

You've completely made that up. Leigh brought Championship clubs much higher attendances than TWP last year..........

Batley v.Leigh 1240 .v.TWP 894
Barrow.v.Leigh 1637 v.TWP 1,417
Bradford.v.Leigh 4381 v.TWP 3,421
Dewsbury.v.Leigh 1668 v TWP 1,251
Fev.v.Leigh 3,104 v.TWP 2,101
Halifax.v.Leigh 2245 v.TWP 2090
Rochdale.v.Leigh 1019 v.TWP 694
Sheffield.v. Leigh 1082 v.TWP 932
Swinton.v.Leigh 2054 vTWP 1281
Widnes.v.Leigh 5886 .v.TWP 3812

Why don't you do the comparison between Bradford and TWP for pulling power? Sure people came out to see what they were about. I went to Halifax to see TWP in 2018 and I didn't see any Canadians.or Americans, just a phoney club. Once people had had a close look they just weren't impressed...

BTW TWP brought Bulls a stinker of a crowd last year.

Now this we can agree on. Leigh should be in SL because they bring in bigger crowds.
(But didn’t you just say crowd numbers don’t prove anything).
No, I’m sure you are right. Leigh for SL. Donny knows

And not for me either so we are agreed.

On that point yes, but not for the same reasons. I do not make things up as you accused me of doing. I base my reasons and present information based on my knowledge and experience of Canadian Rugby (both codes) and UK rugby. I have a desire to build grass roots rugby league in Canada, thereby expanding the Rugby League world, but without a negative impact on UK rugby league in the process.
You present reasons that you back up with ill-informed and/or straight up incorrect Information about Canadian Rugby (both codes). Stop doing that and we will agree more.

Donnyman is just a parochial, insular liar.

icon_mad.giftq2pdqx

Sorry but there's nothing incorrect about the fact Rugby league died out twice in Canada, nothing incorrect about how Perez restarted it back in 2010, and nothing incorrect about how low level what RL there is there, ask Noble who was sent out to try to find Canadian RL players for TWP. Perez left Canada RL to follow these crazy projects the first at TWP promised canadian players and TV deals that never came just to get into the game here, the second has the same silly modus operandi. "We will use Canadian players" whilst all the time he signs players from here. I read this up.............

icon_mad.giftq2pdqxRugby Union in Canada
Clubs 324

Tell me what the stats are for Rugby league in canada?........

Quote ="Vancouver Leyther" I base my reasons and present information based on my knowledge and experience of Canadian Rugby'" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada_na ... union_team Well I got some of my information on the strength of Canada Rugby Union from this article above. Corrections welcome

Quote ="Vancouver Leyther" I base my reasons and present information based on my knowledge and experience of Canadian Rugby'" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada_na ... union_team Well I got some of my information on the strength of Canada Rugby Union from this article above. Corrections welcome

ah yes,the famously factual wiki!

I keep getting these messages......

[i"This post was made by IR80 who is currently on your ignore list"[/i.

Quote ="IR80"ah yes,the famously factual wiki!'" yes it's amazing what you find with wiki https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whippet

Quote ="IR80"ah yes,the famously factual wiki!'" yes it's amazing what you find with wiki https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whippet

Quote ="snowie"yes it's amazing what you find with wiki https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whippet'" here you go, the latest for you..... "Takeover talks will continue for Toronto. However, the bid headed by New York founder Ricky Wilby has withdrawn from talks. The consortium has pulled out of discussions after discovering they would be unable to get complete ownership of the club due to a minority stakeholder (IR80) being unwilling to sell his share. The bid from Newcastle is also unlikely to get off the ground due to the costs involved. However, it’s believed an international consortium, already involved in sporting club ownership, has now emerged and has shown genuine interest in purchasing the troubled club. Super League chief executive Robert Elstone is believed to be sceptical about including Toronto next season and would prefer the competition to run with eleven teams. It is understood that a possible majority of other clubs in Super League agree with that stance.Leeds and Leeds and St Helens, are thought to strongly disagree with that stance................"" Surprised about the Saints comment, just before the TWP/TO play off game Uncle Eamon was having a go at TWP over the usual issues......Maybe he just doesn't want an 11 team comp,

Quote ="snowie"yes it's amazing what you find with wiki https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whippet'" here you go, the latest for you..... "Takeover talks will continue for Toronto. However, the bid headed by New York founder Ricky Wilby has withdrawn from talks. The consortium has pulled out of discussions after discovering they would be unable to get complete ownership of the club due to a minority stakeholder (IR80) being unwilling to sell his share. The bid from Newcastle is also unlikely to get off the ground due to the costs involved. However, it’s believed an international consortium, already involved in sporting club ownership, has now emerged and has shown genuine interest in purchasing the troubled club. Super League chief executive Robert Elstone is believed to be sceptical about including Toronto next season and would prefer the competition to run with eleven teams. It is understood that a possible majority of other clubs in Super League agree with that stance.Leeds and Leeds and St Helens, are thought to strongly disagree with that stance................"" Surprised about the Saints comment, just before the TWP/TO play off game Uncle Eamon was having a go at TWP over the usual issues......Maybe he just doesn't want an 11 team comp,

Maybe Super League,via their highly paid top man Elstone,could have done some research prior to allowing Toronto Wolfpack into Super League,and accepting the signing of Williams.

[url=https://www.patreon.com/posts/39588405Journalists Knew And Wrote About It - Reminiscent Of Bradford Bulls[/url

as reliable as Wiki!

Well for once you have some correct information about the number of people playing Rugby Union in Canada, according to Wiki.
I invite you to talk to any club level rugby union player about how poorly funded and organized the governing body is. (You are talking to one right now by the way).
At no time have I said that Rugby League currently has more participants than rugby union. I have simply said rugby union is in no fit state to stop the expansion of rugby league in Canada ( but don’t let that put you off copying and pasting Wiki for information that has no relevance to what I have said).

Quote ="Vancouver Leyther" You have some correct information about the number of people playing Rugby Union in Canada. At no time have I said that Rugby League currently has more participants than rugby union. I have simply said rugby union is in no fit state to stop the expansion of rugby league in Canada '" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rugby_league_in_Canada Wikipedia is unable to publish any figures for RL participants in Canada, but it does acknowledge some Rugby league is played, I understand this to be participants that often play both games as there is no sporting apartheid, with immigrants from Australasia being keen, obviously having an RL background. I note the game died out twice in the face of other forms of Football. Revived in 2010 by erm Perez it's made very little progress, the instigator Perez giving up and launching the phoney Toronto Wolfpack who did nothing for RL in Canada, just a vanity project for an Australian RL $Billionaire. $30Million down the pan later it collapsed and the ex-owner now looks to Melbourne. I'm not interested mate, you've been found out, but thank you anyway for being civil about it. rare thing on here.......

Quote ="Vancouver Leyther" You have some correct information about the number of people playing Rugby Union in Canada. At no time have I said that Rugby League currently has more participants than rugby union. I have simply said rugby union is in no fit state to stop the expansion of rugby league in Canada '" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rugby_league_in_Canada Wikipedia is unable to publish any figures for RL participants in Canada, but it does acknowledge some Rugby league is played, I understand this to be participants that often play both games as there is no sporting apartheid, with immigrants from Australasia being keen, obviously having an RL background. I note the game died out twice in the face of other forms of Football. Revived in 2010 by erm Perez it's made very little progress, the instigator Perez giving up and launching the phoney Toronto Wolfpack who did nothing for RL in Canada, just a vanity project for an Australian RL $Billionaire. $30Million down the pan later it collapsed and the ex-owner now looks to Melbourne. I'm not interested mate, you've been found out, but thank you anyway for being civil about it. rare thing on here.......

[i"There is some dispute whether Toronto agreed to never accept central distribution funding from the RFL, or whether they agreed to not take it for a period of three to five years. Numerous sources I have spoken to suggest that the Wolfpack agreed never to take a share of the Sky money.A mythical broadcasting deal for North America, that could deliver Toronto millions, has not yet materialised and may never do in the current broadcasting climate". [/i

John Davison is right to raise this. No TV money was ever promised TWP. TWP dealt entirely with the RFL and had no dealings with Superleague who ignored them. It was Perez who started going on about what TV money SL should give them once they were promoted to SL. They only got that promotion as the quid pro quo for the RFL agreeing to scrub the middle eights.

Yes, Perez kept promising massive TV deals that's true, but when he was cornered he said they would only come once half of Superleague was North American. He wasn't asked how the SKY deal could possibly stay intact with half the English clubs gone.

He was given a free ride year after year to spout absolute garbage, and that continues to this day. Even in the face of a £30Million loss he's still allowed to be at it with another phoney club as is Wilby. The clear question is who exactly is going to pump £30,000,000 down the drain at these clubs. No owners at the Ottawa launch, and when pressed hard Wilby unveiled a English mate of his as one on his rich owners.

This then begs the question why doesn't the game here stand up proud and call this nonsense out?