How about the full time-frame comparsion (1998-2012) as opposed to your selective 5 year one?

[uSuper League[/u
4 teams winning the GF
6 teams appearing in the GF
5 teams finishing top of the ladder

[uNRL[/u
9 teams winning the GF
12 teams appearing in the GF
9 teams finishing top of the ladder

And the comparison suddenly becomes earth-shatteringly different

Who he?

Not really. The point was to illustrate that despite having a salary cap that everyone can spend to, as in the NRL, there can still be the same teams up at the top dominating, as Manly and Melbourne have done recently. And that despite a somewhat unequal league in SL there are still over 40% of teams in with a very good shout of winning the GF next season. The issue now is to make those 40% pull their fingers out come playoff time and actually beat Leeds

and to bring more of the 60% left in to a position where not only can they spend the full cap but they are professionally run and can sustainably spend the cap plus the extras needed to be consistently at the top.

Wigan, st's, hull fc, Warrington, Leeds, hull kr, les cats, hudds all spend full cap

Not sure how close to the cap the remaining sides are?

Still doesn't explain why you don't see the player movement that you see in NRL? When was the last time we saw a decent England player move from the big 4 to another club?

I accept that Melbourne and Manly have been consistently good recently though domination by those two is stretching your argument somewhat. St George Illawarra might disagree given their club won the GF in 2010 and finished top of the ladder in 2009 and 2010. The point the OP was making is that every NRL club believes they have a reasonable shot at the title and there's plenty of evidence to support that view, even if we only consider your selectively recent 5 year time frame for comparison purposes. The Bulldogs, Roosters and Eels have all finished 16th and bottom of the NRL ladder during the past 5 seasons - yet all three of those clubs have also reached the GF during the same period. Gold Coast Titans finished 3rd in 2009, 4th in 2010 and 16th and last in 2011. NZ Warriors Grand Finalists in 2011 and 14th in 2012.


I disagree with that figure. The only teams in with a very good shout of winning SL are Leeds, Wigan, Saints and Warrington - 4 out of 14 = 28.5%. Has anything changed for 2013? I don't think so and the bookmakers odds reflect that same closed shop of only 4 SL teams in with a chance - Warrington 3/1 or less, Wigan 7/2 or less, Saints 4/1 or less, Leeds 11/2 or less... next up, you can get 14/1 on Hull, and 22/1 on Catalan... Hudds 50/1, Hull KR 80/1, Bradford 100/1, Wakey 150/1, Cas and London 250/1, Widnes 350/1, Salford 450/1.

The problem for SL is that it's practically the same teams competing for the title year in, year out ever since it's inception with only 4 teams ever winning it, punctuated by spells of dominance of two of those 4 teams. The only change has been the disappearance of Bradford down the financial gutter to be replaced by Warrington whose place at the top table is solely due to being bankrolled by a sugar daddy. The importance of money, eh?


The issue we have now is a salary cap which is set at a level which is unsustainable for most, particularly in the current economic climate. Not only has it ensured a closed shop of only 4 genuinely competitive SL teams who are able to manage well enough financially to cope (mainly via the generosity or largess of their sugar daddy), but it's now becoming increasingly evident that several SL clubs will fall by the wayside or worse still - no longer exist. The whole financial model and structure on which SL membership is currently based is inherently flawed - franchising, new stadia criteria, salary cap, etc - the game cannot afford it. It requires urgent review and surgery ASAP. My view is that if the game continues on it's current path, there will be several clubs in SL liquidated within the next 5 years. Other struggling SL clubs who manage to survive will have to consider a return to a semi-professional existence.

I'm sympathetic to the views of the OP on this - as a first step in securing the financial viability of the game (significant decrease in Sport England handouts to the RFL notwithstanding) I'd be looking at reducing the salary cap to a level which is more sustainable and manageable for all - down to around £1 million per club - increased competitiveness will follow. I'm not concerned about the loss of a few players and a reduction in the quality of the SL product - that's been an ongoing process for several seasons anyhow - since at least 2006 - when SL clubs could no longer afford to prop up their squads with better quality overseas signings.

What is the point of maintaining the current flawed set-up? Is it because it suits your club Leeds and they'll be alright Jack? Not much point IMO if there are hardly any teams left to compete against.

There is no point maintaining the current system, there are flaws in it and changes we should make, but you will really need to explain your logic that thinks that putting on a lower quality product, and as such bringing in less money from sponsors and tv deals, and from turnstile takings and merchandise spends, and not investing in new facilities/stadia and re-introducing the uncertainty and instability of relegation is going to achieve the aims we have as a game?

I think we suffered early on from not being in the market for players in our first season in SL until after all the other teams had their squads signed up, consequently we spent too much on contracts which were too long with players that were not really worth the money they were being paid.

SL and the NRL operate in different markets with different market conditions. A more like-for-like comparison could be to compare the Pre-SL Championship in 1995 to Super League in 2012.

RL Championship 1988-1995
1 club (Wigan) won
* 7 Cup and League doubles
* An additional League
* 5 League Cups
* 3 World Club Challenge titles

Super League 1996 onwards
* 4 Grand Final winners
* 6 clubs to play in the Grand Final
* 5 League Leaders
* 7 clubs to win the Challenge Cup
* 10 clubs to reach the Cup final
* 3 English clubs winning the WCC

I watch A LOT of different sport and definitely no sport fans in any country in the world are as obsessed with what their counterparts from another country are doing as much as english RL fans are towards Australia....at least not in a way that is as so detrimental towards their own product.

When you try to control the market by imposing artificial rules & regulations you will initially find people trying to find ways around the rules, some legal, some illegal and some questionable practices somewhere between the two.
We've seen players' incomes being boosted with cars, houses or by their wives being employed in non-jobs at vastly inflated salaries and we've seen payments to players being deferred until the following season or later. So you think up more rules until eventually you've got it all buttoned down and think you've got a watertight system until the players realise that there's a whole world out there that doesn't have to abide by the rules you've made up for your tiny corner of it and they move off to try their hand at the sport in another country that will pay them more, or another sport altogether. Its a sort of sporting version of communism and it just doesn't work. Comparisons with the NRL are of limited help because RL in Australia is the national sport and here its a minority pastime.
I'd have some minimum criteria surrounding facilities and youth programs/reserve grade teams to prevent clubs simply throwing money at short term success to the detriment of the develpoment of the game but then I'd leave the rest of the spending to the club. If they made bad decisions and blew all their cash 'living the dream' like LUFC did they can suffer the consequences and someone else can take their place.

Other codes in the UK, including other high profile Rugby Union competitions, also witness a few teams dominate the competition.
* The Aviva Premiership has only been won by 7 clubs in its 25 year history, with three clubs winning 21 of those 25 seasons, Leicester (9 titles), Bath and Wasps (6 each). A core of clubs still always place well.
* The Premier League - 20 clubs, still dominated by a Big 4 or 5. 5 winners in 20 years, Man U with 12 of those.
* French Top 14 RU - 14 clubs, only 5 clubs in the 16 years of professionalism, with 2 clubs winning 11 of the 16 titles (Toulouse with 6, Stade Francais with 5).

Players will obviously take up the game for the love of it, and achieve as much as they can, but large offers from other competitions would be very tempting, especially if faced with a pay cut due to a reduced salary cap. Players will also seek to maximise earnings during their player career.

Guys like Jason Robinson, Andy Farrell, Henry Paul, Iestyn Harris, even Vainikolo and Hape were a big loss to RL at the time. The increased earnings in RU would have been one factor in their switch (among a number, admittedly). Current players like Chris Ashton, Kyle Eastmond, Joel Tomkins, Owen Farrell and George Ford would all be excellent additions to SL and the national team - the first 2 would be certain starters. Super League will miss 10 star players that could boost the competition's standards and appeal.

There is also evidence of competitions losing good players to competitions with a higher salary cap In recent times.

* NRL lost a number of players to big deals in SH Rugby (Sailor, Rogers, Tuqiri, Tahu, Folau), the Top 14 (Gasnier, Gower, SBW) and Top League (Craig Wing), and to Super League (over the 2000s).
* Wales RU has seen 8 current test players move to France.
* Super League - to Aviva Premiership, see above. Even so, 4 Aviva Premiership clubs successfully lobbied for a recent cap increase, Leicester's coach Richard Cockerill most vocally complaining about big spending Top 14 and Japan Top League clubs poaching players.
* Southern Hemisphere RU (especially South Africa) - many.

I don't want to divert the thread from its initial point about the importance of money but some of those players listed there were no loss to the game. Chris Ashton was a defensive liability and his future in the Wigan first team was not assured. Andy Farrell, Shontayne Hape and Leslie Vainikolo were all the wrong side of 30 and all had significant knee problems. It was good business to get rid of them and short term blindness by RU to sign them.

As for Owen Farrell, he has absolutely nothing to offer the game of RL outside of his goal kicking. He is slow, run averse, and cannot make a break. Any decent BARLA stand off would be a better propsect for RL than him. He is not even much of a prospect in RU, if England want to consistently compete with the Southern hemisphere, even given the recent result against the all blacks.

Vainikolo was 27-28 when he went to union. Hape was a couple of years younger.

well done, I would class this as the most incorrect post I have read on here for a long time!

Vainikolo was 27 when he left, Hape was also 27.
Farrell was also a week before his 30th birthday before he left. So in fact, non of them were the wrong side of 30, unless you of course mean the younger side.

Also, short term blindness of RU to sign Farrell. Are you trying to make me laugh. So short term blindness that he is now England assistant coach, and going on tour with the Lions. They have in Farrell one of the best up and coming coaches, and someone who should NEVER have been lost to the game of Rugby League. They also lured his son away from the game of league and created a bridge between the two codes, which could see many players leave League to join Union through his knowledge of League and position in Union. Joel Tomkins anyone. Already been talked about as a England centre. There is the potential for many more to follow this path. How on earth is that short term blindness from Union, its a blooming master stroke!

Owen Farrell who you just brush aside as a nothing player is one of the most promising players I have seen in Union for a long time. The thing which you so criminally miss out of you're assessment of him is his mental strength. Nothing seems to bother him, or get him outside of his comfort zone, which in front of that many people is half of the battle of being a great player. That is totally ignoring you're poor summary of the player as he is not run averse. His ability to take the right option, be it through his excellent passing game or kicking is also impressive for someone of his age and experience.

To say Owen Farrell has nothing to offer league is just pure and utter drivel. I wouldn't say Sinfield is quick, or a running HB but he seems to do okay at Stand Off, although Owen may well be seen as a LF if he was still in league.

We also lose people like Shaun Edwards to Union. These Ex-Players should be in our game coaching our young players, but we cannot afford to pay them like union can.

you could have a rich ex player pump 15 million into a club like us

We don’t have the clubs at a sufficient level to replace them.

Shontayne Hape had had two knee reconstructions, Vainikolo and Farrell had both had serious knee injuries. Farrell spent months out of the game due to recurring injuries and a road accident but he was crocked when he went to Union. It was good business by RL not to offer them major money to stay, None of them was up to continuing their RL careers. It is a testament to lesser fitness and speed required for top class Union that they were all able to get into th England team, Farrell as a back for Petes sake. OK they were less than 30 but they were finished in RL.

Are you saying that Farrell was recruited to RU as a coach. Tht s plain wrong. His coaching career ensued after he finished playing because of his skills and knowledge of rugby. It was not why he left League.

Both Joel Tomkins and Eastmond left for the money, nothing more, nothing less. Why would Eastmond sign for Bath if Farrell was such a huge influemce in getting players to jump to RU ?

Master stroke. They paid a fortune and got next to nothing in return fom Farrell as a player.

If Owen Farrell is the future of English RU success then good luck.He is not fit to lace the boots of such great RU stand offs as David Watkins, Phil Bennett, Jonathan Davies, Chris Carter, Carlos Rogers or even Sharp.

He is from the long line of nonetities who have graced British RU with their kick first, run never approach like O Gara Jones,Wilkinson and the very forgettable Scottish excuses for stand offs.

He dosn t make a break or a mesmerising side step to set his threequarters in motion with mental strength. He needs physical ability to do that and all he can do is kick. He is run averse. His first instinct is to heave the ball downfield. His astute passing, which you praise but I have never seen, is practically useless if he never shapes to run and the defence can just key on those to whom he passes.

Don t give me that age and experience guff either. Alex Murphy and Roger Mollward were playing against and beating the Aussies when they were teenagers. Farrell is playing the kind of earth shattering stand off brilliance expected of a 35 year old just selected to manage things because there is no one better.

You might be right in saying Farrell might make a loose forward.Thats what Sinfield does for leeds. He might be listed as stand off but he plays as a link forward. The person playing the traditional stand off role at Leeds is Mcguire, you know, devastating place, making breaks, setting up chances for his outside backs on the end of the breaks, you know, things Farrell cannot do.

I have no quarrel with you regarding your observations Sean Edwards and I don t know why he is iin your post. I never mentioned him.

A couple of things here - just because Farrell is on the England coaching set up doesn't make him a great coach, he may well be the best of a bad bunch. Lancaster, let's face it didn't pull up many trees when he was at Leeds and what alternatives do England have?

On Owen Farrell, he again is the best of a poor bunch, there isn't an outstanding half back in English RU he would not get into the Welsh/Kiwi/SA or Australian sides - I agree with the first post his game is very limited and not suited to RL whatsoever. He is not risk averse he simply doesn't have the skills.

Looks like not all rich people are being put off by a salary cap! www.rlcm.com.au/latest-news/20744-rugby-league

Looks like not all rich people are being put off by a salary cap! www.rlcm.com.au/latest-news/20744-rugby-league

Leeds edged back in front four minutes into the second half when McGuire's long pass got winger Jimmy Watson over for their fourth try and the England half-back took complete control to create further tries for winger Jamel Chisholm, substitute Alex Foster and Moon

Re the discussion of the merits of Owen Farrell in the couple of posts above. The quote above is from a report on the Leeds v Wakefield game at Headingley today. What McGuire did is what a halfback, particlularly a stand off halfback should be doing, not punting the ball down field witing for the other team to commit an offence so a penalty goal can be kicked like Farrell does.

Leeds are not spending up to the full amount of the cap.

As Sinfield has remarked following one of our grand final victories, Leeds players could earn more at other clubs, however they choose to stay at Leeds because they believe they stand a better chance of winning something.

Lol, of course your not!

Leeds aren't and generally haven't been spending right up to the cap

"we have space within the salary cap to bring in players if and when they become available. That happened back in 2004 when we signed Ali Lauitiiti and in 2006 when we signed Clinton Toopi."
Hetherington in November.

You do realise that once Rovers get their hands on Mr. Larvin's millions, your days at the top are numbered.

Not really. £15m? It's less than 18 months income at Leeds.