Punishment for what?

Just like a coach selects his best team, the league select their best refs. Now, if a player makes repeated errors he might find himself not playing, but only if the coach has a player he thinks is better to put in instead.

This is the problem, like it or not these refs that get selected are the best of the bunch. We can't simply go dropping refs because we've got nobody to replace them with.

Not strictly true. The problem, however, was the bizarre decision to move to full-time pro refs. As soon as you do that, not only do you cost the RFL a LOT of money which it doesn't have, but you also automatically limit your pool of referees for top games. It's almost impossible from that point on to award a SL game to someone from outside the cartel of full-time refs.

As it happens, I don't think the full-time referees are bad at all. But then as someone who has played, watched and reffed the game for 30 years now, I'm a little more balanced and understanding than some other fans who only see the decisions they disagree with affecting their own team. However, I think it's a big mistake to limit your top pool to such small numbers. Refs don't need to be full-time. It's quite possible to get part-time refs who are just as capable as the full-time guys, and that way, you'd have a much bigger pool to choose from to deal with fluctuations in form/fitness.

I disagree.



Who said anything about "before a game"? I've been talking in regards to decisions made by a referee, and the impact it has had "after" the game. I've never mentioned anything about before a match.



And who has said anything about starting the game without respect from the referee? I think you've gotten lost somewhere along the line.



Ah, the old "I don't agree with what you say so that must mean you know sod all about RL" comment.

You seemed to be quite a reasonable poster, it's strange how wrong you can be sometimes.

It was an example used in a hypothetical situation.

No need to get your boxers in a twist over it. But if you are really that unhappy with what I've put, then by all means exchange Chris Irvine for Jon Sharp or Steve Ganson or Peter Brooke or Ralph Rimmer or Nigel Wood or whoever else you want.

And anyway, if said coach in the example provided is able to talk to the RFL, the head of referees and the referee himself, does this mean that he is able to vent his frustrations to any of them without fear of repercussions? Or is it if he just vents his frustrations to a journalist either in print or on live television? I don't think so. Regardless of who he speaks to, either behind closed doors or out in the open, if he questions the integrity of the referee, I am sure the coach in the example would be punished accordingly.

Well if we change Chris Irvine for Jon Sharp, Steve Ganson or any other RFL official, we don't have an issue and no one has an underpants problem, because that is allowed and encouraged. So that being the case, just what are your knickers twisted around?

Whether he's at risk of repercussions for venting his frustrations, then I'd expect the standard real life rules around how mature adults converse will apply. i.e if said coach just rants at and insults a ref or official, than he'd get the same response to that as he would ranting and insulting most people. If he were to have a grown up conversation, then he'd get a different response.

You know, "after" game 1 is also "before" game 2 ? Right ?

Unless you've developed a mindwipe device which, if used, removes all memories of coaches' criticism of referees more than 24 hours after the event.



Seriously, if you think that having a coach slagging off a referee publicly for his players and club fans to read/see/hear isn't going to reduce the respect those same players have for that referee, then you're deranged. If you turn someone into an officially-sanctioned target for public criticism and opprobrium, then of course they will be afforded less respect in the future. It would be simply mad to suggest otherwise.




To be honest, if you genuinely think that allowing coaches, or players, or any club officials, to heedlessly criticise referees publicly, is a good idea, then I'm sorry but I'll stand by that statement. Nobody who has been on a pitch, whether as referee or player, thinks the game is made better by having a ref have to deal with the game after being publicly slagged off by anyone connected to one of the clubs in question.

I am a reasonable poster. It's this suggestion which is unreasonable. That's why Richie is quite rightly pushing someone else on it. Criticism is fine, as long as it's constructive. Even at an amateur level there are ways for criticism to be made of referees' performances. But it is not done publicly, ever. Because to do so would be to poison the atmosphere between all members of a club and the referee, and to make the safe control of future games almost impossible.

If Brown, for example, has a beef with a ref - and I speak as a Saints fan here - then he has channels for airing those issues. Spouting off to a journalist is completely unacceptable. It always has been and always should be. I for one do not ever want to see in rugby league a situation in which players feel able to do what they do in football and try to physically intimidate the referee on the pitch. Yet that is indisputably where such a concept of public criticism would lead.

But regardless of whether said coach rants and raves, or puts his point across constructively, he would still face sanctions because he is apparently questioning the integrity of a referee. Obviously by the way he acts, he would be spoken to in a different manner, but ultimately the outcome is the same.

What makes you think he'd face sanctions for this?

We're kind of talking about two different things by the way. Integrity, and ability....or both. I can't think why the integrity of an official would be questioned. Ability, yes.

By the way, if any RFL official publicly questioned the integrity of a coach, I'd expect repercussions for that too.

Well, that is how the numerical system works.



Yawn.



Where have I mentioned about a coach "slagging off" a referee? I'm talking about constructive criticism, gathering specific points and providing them in a respectful, professional manner. Not for instance bargining into a referee's room, pointing fingers and shouting "YOU F*****G SCREWED US OVER REF!"



So basically no matter how poor someone does their job, they are above constructive criticism? Why should that be allowed? So if a referee makes a poor decision, does that mean that his immediate boss is unable to give him constructive criticism regarding his performance? Or is it just the players and coaches that are not allowed to question him. I've not suggested anything otherwise, as you put it. I think the way you have seen my post, is that I think the coaches can come out and say absolutely anything about a referee. Maybe if I would have added the words "constructive criticism" in there, it may have been thought about differently. But, I stick by what I have said, regardless if other people seem to have read it differently.



Already explained it as above. I just don't get why people seem to think that if you give criticism of a referees performance, this automatically means that you don't respect them. I respect the hell out of my boss, but if she does something wrong, and it affects something that I do, I have to say something, albeit "con-struct-iv-ely". (see, I've added it there)



Again, where have I mentioned about referees being publicly slagged off? Again, I think you have interpreted my words incorrectly. I'm a qualified referee myself. Yes, I wouldn't enjoy someone coming over effing and blinding in my face, saying I was biased, saying that I'm a "f*****g cheat", but if someone came over and gave me feedback constructively on my performance (whether it was average or bad), then that is something that is not a problem to me.



Riiiight.



I disagree. But even though I disagree with you, I'm not going to question your integrity and say that you know nothing about Rugby League. It's all about having decorum, Roy. You'd be well trying it sometime.



But that's what I have been saying. Constructive criticism. Not shouting and swearing and making a fool of yourself.



And as I said to Ritchie, the journalist thing was part of a hypothetical situation and if the name was changed and the situation was changed, then there shouldn't be an issue. But like I said earlier, if a coach gives constructive criticism regardless or not if it's behind closed doors at Red Hall, or on a radio station, there will still be sanctions against him.

Actually, that is about as bad an example as you can give. There are plenty of people, slef included, who are very happy with that decision, as I am convinced that it was a try,, and moreover, have explaiend why, and interestingly enough, nobody has challenged the reasoning. Which i didn't think anyone who thought about it could fairly do.

The only issue with that try is if the ball hit the corner flag first, but to put it neutrally, there is no evidence at all that it did, so it would be wrong to disallow on some hunch.

Anyway, given that there is (at least) a large body of opinion, backed up by the laws of physics, that strongly suggest it was a valid try, it would be ludicrous to ask how you can respect a VR who amkes that decision. It was a decision he was entitled to make, and I personally am sure it was right. Even if somehow the decision was wrong, it certainly isn't a "respect" issue whatsoever.



This. The only people it suits are the loudmouthed bigots who dominate radio phone-ins. Anyone who can't see why a sport needs to give respect to its officials is a very stupid person indeed. Mercifully we have not only TGG, but also perhaps the game in the world which shows the most respect for officials, which given the intense nature of the sport is astonishing. Long may it continue, and a plague on the houses of the misfits who want officials regularly castigated in public by biased people, who are invariably wrong anyway.

Because he's questioning the decisions of the referee? So if he was to visit Red Hall, speak to a RFL official on the quiet and discuss how a referee's decision cost his team the game, he wouldn't face sanctions, but if the coach was to do it in an interview on Sky Sports, he would?

I would have assumed that just questioning the decision of a referee would mean a possible fine, or in football, a touchline ban.



Integrity would only be questioned if someone really believed that there was a conspiracy against them and that the referee was part of that. Hull KR fans maybe? I think I've seen both linked in together, hence why when I stated integrity in the past if I did (can't recall), didn't necessarily mean that someone thought the ref was biased, just that his decision making was being brought into question. Guess that could fall in either integrity or ability.



Well, of course. That would be a given.

So this whole thread has been about an incorrect assumption you made?



It's an important differentiation, which was why I made the point.



So why would anyone think it's OK for a coach to publicly challenge the integrity of a referee?

Where have you got this idea that there are sanctions for complaining about a referee through the right channels?

That's the key thing here - the channels such issues are raised through.

Although most of the Younger ref's these days seem to be touchjudges-cum-ref's, when did this start ? i know they are also qualified ref's but we never used to have this - you can have a guy running the line in for example a bottom of the league clash who the next day is a ref or video ref for a top 6 game or something, just doesn't seem right to me.

It was a variation of an assumption.

And anyway, I wasn't aware I started the thread....



I'm pleased for you.



Where have I said it's okay for a coach to come out and publicly complain that a referee is biased against their team or has a conspiracy against them? I've said the coaches should be allowed to question the decisions made by a referee using constructive criticism, but I've never said it's okay for them to accuse the referee of being biased and having a conspiracy against their team.

I didn't say you had started the thread.


Happy to help, at least we have achieved some education for you on this thread if nothing else.



Do you realise other posters are posting on this thread and have suggested referees should be criticised publicly? You yourself stated "What I'm saying is that there shouldn't BE restrictions" by the way.

I don't see the problem with that. It makes sense for the younger officials to get involved to a different extent in the bigger games, rather than just being thrown in as the main referee at some point in their career. I cant remember Steve Ganson's development, but I presume at some point he went from being a lower league ref to doing a full time Super League game, without any middle ground to bring him upto speed with the top level.

It should also give them a broader vision of the game and a proper understanding of the different roles.

Totally true. By going to full time referees you are limiting the pool to a group of people who are willing to accept about £30k and work in Leeds regularly. Thus ruling out anyone who has a fruitful career in another industry, doesn't want to commute to Leeds, doesn't want to retire from their career at 40 etc....

It makes me wonder what type of people these guys are that they are willing to do it, is it because they cant get anything better / earn more elsewhere; and if so, why are we limiting ourselves to such candidates.

Assuming that the refs can hit the required fitness and competence standards, it shouldn't matter that they are an investment banker or a milkman in the week.

It was implied.



Heh heh, another one that can't debate without throwing insults around. Shame that, I was enjoying having decent debate with someone who I thought seemed to be an okay poster, well, until I seen some of your postings on other topics. You like starting a lot of conflict, don't you......





Well, that's up to them. I'm just replying to the posts that are addressed directly to me. And if they are doing that, why are you not pulling them up on it too?



Indeed I did. I believe it was in response to you saying that coaches can give constructive criticism about referees but there are restrictions on WHERE they can say it.

If you want me to back down so that you can update your excel spreadsheet with all the people you feel you have "bested" on an internet forum, why don't you just ask me mate? I probably won't, but at least you will have gone through the "correct channels"...

Then you misunderstood.



You felt insulted by that?
Looking back, your first contribution to this thread was "Oh shut up, you tart." albeit to a poster who is a bit of a cock. You later made reference to a coach discussion referees with his budgie. Would anyone think you an okay poster reading those posts?


Because it takes too long to go pull up every post, and as you'll have seen, some posters can't even answer clear questions.


Thanks for the clarification.


Why would think I think this is that important?



So, after all this, what do you feel about how and where coaches should criticise officials?

Nah, I really didn't.



Nope, I thought it was mildly amusing which surprised me as I didn't think you had any humour in you. Good on ya pal!



Well, at least we agree on something. As I'm sure hundreds of others do on here too. Though I wouldn't say "a bit".



Hypothetical scenario. I could have chosen something else, but some budgies respond to speech so I thought I would include it. Do you have pets? If you do, do you speak to them? I can imagine a lot of people do.



One of your internet forum "pet peeves" I guess. I can imagine you have a lot of them.....



It was my pleasure.



Did you miss a word out there? Question sounds a bit off. If the word was "you", then I would think that it's very important for you to best people in forum combat. If the think word was duplicated, then who really knows what you think....



After all what, Ritchie? The conflict? The budgie talk? The misunderstandings? I mean, if it's really truly that important to you, what answer would you like me to give?

Awarding a try that was clearly not a try. Therefore not doing his job correctly. If I didn't do my job correctly I would be punished.

Has it ever crossed your mind that the refs do their job for the love of the game?

[size=50(or it might be because they are a bunch of jumped-up, power -mad little Hitlers)[/size