I have seen him more than enough to formuate an opinion. IMO he has all the skills required, but he is at least a stone light ATM.

Looks more like the reverse of the truth to me. When Bateman first came along, I was worried that his temperament would be the spoiling of him, despite his obvious talent and hunger for work. However, fortunately, this season he has grown up, in more ways than one, and I don't have that concern. Sure, he's going to concede some penalties, as all hard-tackling second-rowers will, but nothing out of the ordinary.

Bateman is a talented player, as is Ward.

Both, however, are too small for International rugby IMO and would suffer in the same way Liam Farrell has.

Hope I'm wrong if/when they pull the jersey on.

I think ward is 6"1 or 6"2 ish so hardly small and has already bulked up considerably to last year.he should be big enough in 18 months to 2 years time.

Bateman is very strong for his size and i could see him in an international shirt if he does bulk up a bit.both have time to do it.

Up until this season I thought the same about Ward, but he has bulked up impressively while maintaining his mobility. He reminds me of a young Andy Platt. He is another, however, exaggerating his height.

Stats on S players seem to be embarrassingly wrong. I think Ryan Hall was down as 15 stone-ish for a long time when he looks like he could eat that much for lunch.

Size matters at international level. You can get away with one smaller backrower if they work their socks off and run good angles and above their weight when required - that's Greg Bird. Farrell last year in the 4N did neither and really looked way out of his depth.

I hope things change, but as it stands none of those listed fill me with great expectations. Sadly easily our best second row option is currently farting around with Bath.

I've got high hopes for Greenwood over the next couple of years. He has the size that many young back rows don't, can line fantastically and is an aggressive defender.
It will be interesting to see how Savelio develops in terms of size, position and national allegiance and Luke Thompson looks like he could be a real rock for us at 13.

LMS is currently doing a decent stint in the second row for us, but can't see him being anything but a squad pick at best.

Well having had my pictures taken with most of the Wigan squad

(I only wanted to meet Steve Blakeley!

) during Magic Weekend at their hotel I was surprised how small most of their forwards are. Take out Mossop, SOL and the tall lad with ginger bumfluff (sorry didn't recognise him) and they looked really small. I'm 5'11 and pretty much identical height to Bateman, who at a push might make 6ft. He's got a much smaller frame than I thought as well so must punch way above his weight.

SOL is definitely around the 6'3 mark and physically far more imposing that Bateman. As also stated Liam Farrell just looks far too small to make an impact at international level. You need to be phenomenal in other facets to your game if you lack in size and Farrell isn't (IMO).

I really like the look of Greenwood though and he was MOM at Barton earlier this season IMO. Looks an outstanding prospect. Savelio also looks pretty handy... not sure they need Lama in their pack next year.... can we keep him please?

Agree with all of that, think Saints have some really good back row prospects but Greenwood looked mature beyond his years at the start of the season. With Savelio, Greenwood, Thompson, Bateman, Currie and Ward, the long-term prospects for back row for England look pretty promising. Think we might struggle for a couple of years until all that talent is fully developed however...hopefully they'll have matured enough by 2017.



The reason that the Wigan backrowers have been picked out IMO is that your second rowers do a huge amount of work compared to your props, so if you're paying attention to line breaks for example, they're less likely to look good (compare with Currie for example). I also don't think your structure has been as effective as in previous years, so while two years ago Farrell may have found an ineffective tackle and a line break from a second man play, this year he hasn't. O'Loughlin is almost constantly injured so no wonder he's criticised. I don't think people are criticising Bateman's talent or ability, merely whether he's big enough or not.

I would go Bateman whitehead lms then on bench go with roby ferres t burgess g burgess

Doom&Gloom Merchant wrote:Weird how the Wigan players (Farrel, Bateman and O'Loughlin) have been picked out for criticism.


Welcome to the VT.

That's because they are being touted as internationals when they are obviously not up to the mark.

I'd balance criticism of Farrell to say that Sargison was very good last year. Its not anti-Wigan from me - its anti- over-hyped SL forwards getting hammered when it counts at international level.

don't forget when discussing international selections, it's only for players from 4 clubs and the NRL, i'm surprised whitehead is getting mentioned.

Size and frame on players can be incredibly deceptive.

If you've ever stood next to Jamie Peacock in his training gear, while he's tall he's not particularly thick set. His legs in particular don't look like those of your stereotypical RL prop forward.

Hasn't stopped him being one of the most effective forwards of the SL era though.

I do think back row is a bit of an issue, although it depends on how some of the youngsters mature physically. We seem to have quite a few young lightweight forwards who look promising but you get the feeling would get run over if they played NRL or test rugby league.

Don't rate Ferres or Westerman and I think Farrell lacks the size to dominate at international level, Wardle would have the same issue if we tried to play him at second row for England. Westwood and O'Loughlin are past their best, so if I was selecting for an international right now I'd take Tomkins, Currie, and Whitehead and probably Stevie Ward although I have my doubts about his physicality.

I thought Westerman looked better than Farrell last year.

I think Ferres, Westerman & Whitehead all have what it takes to be international backrowers, not that I would necessarily want to see all 3 together.

I was just going don my tin hat and post that Joe Westerman was definitely in with a shot but the last couple of posters beat me to it.

I haven't seen much of Westerman recently but I watched the 2nd half of Hull vs. Catalan and Westerman was dreadful with the ball. He must have ruined at least 3 chances on the Catalan line with stupid/poor play.

Remember when Westerman and Sam Burgess were the Great White Hopes of English rugby league? Seems to me he never really fulfilled his early promise.

How about Greenwood? The more I see him play the more impressed I get. Rare breed in that while he's a very talented player, he's also got some size about him. He's 6'3 and 105kg, for comparison Liam Farrell is apparently 6 foot and 93kg, Whitehead 6'1 100kg.

Oliver Holmes from Castleford must be in with a shout, surprised me when I learnt last night he's only 22 years old.

i was going to post somethig similar, he has been around for years and always impressed me, i reckon he is as good if not better than some names that are floating around. he's big, strong, fast, good hands and decent defence too..
cas fans will tell us that he's been consistently good for a few years now and would deserve a mention, but we all know that when it comes to the England team it's who you play for... most 2nd rowers from Leeds,Wigan, Saints and wire will almost always get the nod ahead of players from castleford either from the coach or on on forums.

To be honest I forgot about Holmes when writing the OP, but agree that he should be mentioned alongside the names in this thread.

I had no idea he was just 22 either

Greenwood looks at least 6'4 maybe 6'5.Stands out as being head and shoulders above most everytime i have seen him. And i agree, looks a real prospect