Don't disagree, but its part of the problem. Defence has improved, but there's no creativity anymore, and the game is just a series of players running into each other. The trend of most SL clubs is a diminishing number of punters through the turnstyles, with the next Sky TV deal being widely reported as being less (and that was pre Covid9). For me, the product we have now is just boring, and we need to find a ways of livening it up. The shot clocks and other tweaks have not really made any difference, and the lying on with three defenders is killing the game.

If you're happy with the way things are, that's great, it's your choice and I don't have a problem with that.

Are we as individuals and the game of RL not part of a wider society, where one affects the other?

Apologies for being pedantic but that’s what it was to begin with. Creativity has not died out the game, to insinuate that is ridiculous.

I’m not a fan of the shot clock, it adds little and is just a pointless exercise IMO.

I don’t deny things need to be changed to bring fans through the door but I don’t think it’s all to do with the actual product. More to do with the inept RFL mismanagement of the game for years, disillusioning fans and driving them away. The product has evolved whereas the RFL have gone backwards and devolved. That’s where the problem is IMO.

I respect your opinion on how the game was. I was born the back end of the 80’s and other than watching the odd 80’s game can’t offer an expert or experienced opinion whereas you (I’m assuming) can. Regardless of that, we’ll agree to disagree on this.

Yes but the conversational topic is on RL clubs, not individuals.

Through nostalgia, people cherry pick out the good moments in the past. There were some awful, boring games during those times too and some poor players. As someone has already mentioned, defences were also shocking.

Leeds fans probably look back on 06-09 as their most skilful, exciting times as that's when they were most success. For us they we had some of the worst teams and worst matches we watched (excl. 2006 and some Barrett moments).

You've picked out 8 players that span 30-40 years of RL. So it's only fair to look at the same timelines. Then you can include players like Vainikolo, Fielden, Farrell, Robinson, Sculthorpe, Lammy, Renouf, Peacock, Lyon, Burrow, McGuire, Tomkins, Barrett, Richards, Graham, Menzies, Roby, Lockers, Denny Solomona (for a season), Barba, Roby.

Most of these players were exciting, creative, skilful and most will go down as legends of RL and performed consistently in SL recently.

If you want players from the last couple of seasons then Tomkins, Maloney, Makinson, Johnstone, Lomax, Marshall, Williams, Hurrell, Folau, Thompson, Austin, Hastings, Kelly, Walmsley, McGillvary, Lockers, Kasiano. Most of these are world class players or exciting in SL or will go onto become a legend.

there is creativity but they dont get the time like they used to a slip through massive holes that poor defenses created

This. Just needed to watch the challenge cup today between saints and Bradford. Even I could have made breaks given the shocking defence set up by both teams

I'm not insinuating anything, as I clearly gave my opinion that the standard of creativity in SL as a sport and individually, has plummeted over the past 20 years. Hardly a ridiculous opinion given the decline in punters through the terraces and the issues to come with the next Sky deal.

There isn't creativity, as it's all been coached out of the players by a procession of Australian coaches.
Nobody's willing to try anything anymore, for fear of a rollicking in the dressing room as it's all field position and percentage plays these days. For me our game in now robotic and dull.

The decline is through years of RFL mismanagement not the creativity. That’s as alive and well as it was in the era you’re harping on about.

If you watched the CC documentary on BBC yesterday you’d see the poor defensive structures teams had. It wasn’t hard to create something that looked for all the world unbelievable when you have bus sized holes and a dog leg defensive line.

nonsense, Barrett wasnt creative Johns? Cronk, Thurston?

I do think the quality has been watered down somewhat. The Wigan side of 2000 would have beaten the 2013 double winners IMO and the 2006 Saints side was far better than the current model.

With regards to punters, the constant changing of formats hasn't helped.

My point was in respect of coaching in SL. While you mentioned them, we only saw Barrett over here for a season, and his last game was 10 years ago. Andrew Johns retired in 2007.
Cronk and Thurston are both recently retired. They've all gone from the game.

Which era have I harped on about? All I've stated is it is my opinion that the standard of SL has plummeted in the last 20 years, it's no where near the entertaining game it used to be. SL cannot keep what little talent there is draining away to the NRL and RU, and were only getting to see third rate, players with baggage or looking for a pension top up coming the other way. Tomkins was only released back to SL from NZ Warriors because his pace had gone after injury, and he's still one of the best English/GB full backs we have, but no where near the player he was.

We've gone too far on the defensive mindset with stifling wrestlemania tactics (evolved in Australia) being the be all and end all. Then there's so many players with ball in hand not knowing what to do with it, other than drive it forward.

As I stated before, if you're happy with the standard of players and game I haven't got a problem with that, as people can like or dislike whatever they want.

so your saying RL has been boring for 1 season as Cronk played last year? You didnt you said there arent skillful players as its been coached out of them and you never mentioned SL....plus we saw Trent for 2 seasons, keep up.

just to help you out

Fair enough. We can agree to disagree on this

The RFL can hardly be blamed for the way the game is no longer the attraction it was in the past. The lack of top players at their peak from down under and other countries like South Africa and Zimbabwe (Rhodesia), the rival code of Rugby Union, especially from South Wales, the constant changing of rules and a national media who today are only interested in the national sports of Cricket, Football and Rugby Union and Horse Racing. Even Womens teams in the three field sports I have stated now get more media attention than our men's game.

There still be might be creative players in the game, but they are now less in number than in the past and it is hardly surprising when the game is not as big as it was in the schools and in some traditional Rugby League towns, no longer even taught in the schools with youngsters now more interested in a X Box and Smart Phone than playing outside with a bat or ball.

Well, a season and a half before he put his cue on the rack because he wanted to go home

I don't think the skill and creativity has declined necessarily. Players are more skillful than they've ever been. However, the the amount of time and space available has decreased, especially post the 2009 world cup when 'the wrestle' became an integral part of the game.
How we reduce the wrestling and speed up the ruck is one of the biggest challenges facing the game in both hemispheres.

Do you mean 2008 World Cup? Or 2009 Four Nations?

We were really poor in 2008 but Tony Smith just couldn't get the team to work. Some very strong players mainly from Leeds and Saints but they just didn't gel. Paul Sykes got a game too so not the best quality



In 2009 we went quite close, I think 6 points in it with 15 mins left but then Australia scored 4 tries. With an Aussie ref and some immortal players in their absolute prime - Slater, Inglis, Hayne, Lockyer, Thurston, Smith, Civoniceva, Gallen - it would've taken an incredible team to beat them and we still had players like Peter Fox, Chris Bridge, Eorl Crabtree in there. I don't think it was just because we couldn't wrestle.

Big off field issues in 2008 between Leeds and Saints players

Yes, 2008.

I remember one of the main excuses banded about at the time of England's world cup performance was the ruck in SL was too quick and there was too much 'scooting' which meant they struggled to create anything when they came up against the slower rucks generated by Aus/NZ (although the standard of backs we had available at the time was pretty awful). We saw an almost immediate shift in what refs would all defenses to get away with at the play the ball, and it's been getting messier ever since.

Yeah I think you are probably right there. No coincidence it was the year after James Roby won MOS pretty much by being an impact scooting sub.

Also there were a lot of big clubs in transition. We were really not that great and still weren't far off beating Leeds in the SF. But all the decent players we had were Aussies/Kiwis. Bradford were already a shadow of their former selves. Hull had one of their worst seasons ever. Warrington were still crap and sacked Cullen.

Whats killed or killing RL in my opinion is the emphasis on defense and structure that the modern game is all about .Gone are the free style rugby which we saw now a days its playing to structure not seeing the players ability to change a game example Gregory and Edwards did there own thing .The game is for me too structured and no flair about it .