yes ... are you a wigan fan by any chance?


shenton, briscoe, s tompkins, graham, ellis, robinson, westwood

the players who stood out for us

Fielden is always the worst prop on any field.

which rating would you dispute?

I disagree. They let themselves down with their abysmal ball control and discipline in the first half. We piggy backed NZ into our own half with a penalty seemingly every time we had them in their own twenty, and we failed to complete nearly half of our sets.

When we kept things simple, looked after the ball and attacked round the ruck we turned NZ around and ended up creating space out wide for the likes of Shenton to exploit. At this point we looked capable of winning the game, but it was ultimately too much after the shocking first 45 or so minutes.

We shouldn't be congratulating ourselves on an above average performance because we fronted up to NZ for 30 mins. We should be very disappointed that for the rest of the game we were playing pub rugby.

Not sure about a O'Loughlin and Roby half back pairing! I'd go with:

1. Widdop
2. Hall
3. Gleeson, if possible
4. Shenton
5. Briscoe
6. Tomkins
7. Robinson
8. Fielden
9. Lunt
10. Graham
11. Ellis
12. Burgess
13. O'Loughlin

14. Westwood
15. Roby
16. Carvell
17. Crabtree

What does a title won 2 years ago have to do with the team today?
They won the Title an will hold it until 2013 but that achievement has no bearing on todays team.
They won a game over 80 minutes and its great, are they the best team in the World now......
You are only as good as your last game.
They have not beaten Oz since that game and have even been beaten by perennial underachievers England.

I agree. He is wrong on quite a few. How Goulding can get a worse mark than Briscoe when he did far more work, made far more metres and was solid in defence is beyond me. Indeed he didnt do a single thing wrong on his debut. He was certainly a damn site better than Ryan Hall last week. Same with Widdop, he was no where near as bad as he makes out and was largely solid, bar one knock on. Shenton's defence was hopeless and apart from one run he was fairly poor and is far too greedy for a centre. Graham and O'Loughlin were very good and were our best forwards. Like you say his ratings have no credibility.

Ben Westwood deserves to start next week, even if it's at prop. He's been outstanding for each of the last 2 weeks, having always played well for England and deserves to have a go from the start.
I'd play Sam Burgess at 10 and Ben Westwood at 12.
The omission of Crabtree was baffling unless he is carrying an injury we don't know about and I'd pick him ahead of Griffin next week. I'd also be tempted to go for broke and pick Ben Harrison ahead of Fielden who was disappointing today and made a typical Fielden error right near the start of the game.
Atkins was badly exposed at left centre and I'd bring in either Cudjoe or Widdop in this position with Sam Tomkins moving to fullback - we've got nothing to lose so let's pick a positive team and play to our strengths.

What were you expecting Briscoe is an fantastic player, who just dosn't see enough ball. The only problem I have with him when he plays for England is you find yourself saying Briscoe was solid and did nothing wrong again, he needs to come looking for the ball more. They would have been better putting him in the centres when Atkins went off

Wouldnt disagree,Id go with Cudjoe at centre. Griffin at Super League level can do a job,at this level he's just a lump.
Its the half's I haven't a clue on.If Brown could kick he might be worth a place but he cant so i dont see what he can offer but whats the alternative.I dont think there Is one.

Still stunned at Brown's inclusion and today did nothing to justify it. In stark contrast to Robinson who really had a good go and lifted the entire side. Pretty disappointed with the pack to be honest. It's in the forwards where we're supposed to be expected to compete and most of them barring Graham & Westwood went missing. Sam Tomkins was lively and Tom Briscoe I thought looked very good when play involved him. Other than that well below par.

The top tackler in the match (from either side) 'went missing'?

So what exactly did Goulding do wrong? Lockers was one of the better players, Aussie back row of Watmough, Gallen and Young are hardly big players.

Graham is not international standard and lacks aggression and size? He's over 17 stone, pretty much same height/weight as Morley, and had a good game.

The whole team were on the back foot from the off, NZ came out in the same way that Melbourne and Wigan play when trying to blow other teams off the park in the first 20.

another graham hater, best forward with westwood on pitch today, plonker.

Tompkins (second rower), Atkins, Griffin & Fielden were absoultely rubbish

Sam T offered more from FB

Titter.

O'Loughlin is the Frank Lampard of the England RL team

The issue for all of our backs, halves and hookers in the first half (all have been slated so far) is that we didn't earn a platform to work form! We dropped too much ball and gave away daft meters. it's tough to create on the back foot. Fielden was poor, Graham was quiet first stint and our kickers couldn't hit the grass.

Widdop 5. Lack of chances in attack, didn't do himself and favours grassing that bomb
Goulding 6. Quiet, didnt make many meters on kick return. Didn't do a great deal wrong though
Shenton (First half 4, Second Half

Prime example of being a different player on the front foot! Got his nose through a gap and put it on a plate for our second try
Atkins 5. Quiet in attack, lack of opportunity possibly. Got rounded twice.
Briscoe 6. Reacted well to scramble situations, loose ball etc. Should have took his chance or put Atkins in outside of him.
Brown 5. Looked very passive, slow, no conviction at the line and stuck for ideas.
Tomkins 8. Looked sharp in a flat team performance. Full back next week for me.
Graham 8. Best stand off we have! I think he may need an enforcer with him against the Aussies, to get a quick play the ball and get him running at them with support.
Roby 7. Good, but not great. Bit hasteful at times. Sub hooker by trade, but forced to do 'the grind' period bue to lack of options.
Fielden 6. Dont want to be too harsh on him, but he looked slow and 1 dimentional.
Ellis 7. Challenged them. On the front foot, we will see a lot more dent's being punched by him
Burgess 7. Lot on his shoulders, carried the ball well, got stuck in. I'd like him as a 13, get a bit more central and find an offload.
O'Loughlin 7. Did well, worked hard. No. 6 next week, play an old fashioned 5/8th role, carry it and take them on with a bit of pivot work.

Robinson 7. Challenged them. Looked ok as a 7 again, that should be his role next week.
Westwood 8. Worked hard and stood up to them. Loads of graft in him, starting jumper.
Griffin 6. Slow and 1d. No worse than Fielden, but no better.
Tomkins 6. Not quite their yet. Got thumped around a bit.

NEXT WEEK
Tomkins
Hall (just fancy him to run the length more than Goulding)
HELP US! Atkins as the best of the bunch!
Shenton
Briscoe
O'Loughlin
Robinson
Crabtree
Roby
Graham
Westwood
Ellis
Burgess

Lunt
Fielden
Griffin
Harrison

O'loughlin went missing? yet made the most tackles out of anybody on the pitch and gave a couple of great passes. you need to watch the game mate, understand the J tomkins rating because of time on the pitch but he gavethe pass to shenton which sent him off. Goulding wasn't out of his depth, he made a heck of a lot of meters for a winger without making breaks. Robinson was also better than you suggest.
Roby had a poor first half but much better second and thought westwood was really good when he came on.
But still, i don't see what what O'loughlin has to do for peopel to rate him.

Oh wait i've only just noticed the rating you gave Graham, making your whole post no longer valid.

Definitely. From a lot of comments, I was expecting to shake my head at Widdops 2nd half in particular. They guy did just fine in his Kiwi initiation. That was a huge game for him, I can't consider it a "bad" game by any measure. If this and the France game is what he's provided at 21, then compared to his last few predecessors, he's a keeper unless playing Sam Tomkins there.

Next week's team:

Tomkins

Pryce
Gleeson
Bridge
Hall

Maguire
Eastmond

Graham
Sinfield
Peacock
Burgess
Ellis
O'Loughlin

Roby
Westwood
Morley
Crabtree

Good team that. And then I woke up.

Sorry Hudds fans, but the only real changes I'd make are Griffin and Brown. On the other hand, I'd replace them with Crabtree and Robinson, with Lunt coming onto the bench.

When you consider how poor we were in the first half, where everyone made mistakes, it wasn't that bad a result. We just needed a little more composure. The thing that always gets me about NZ is how much stronger they always look. Nature/nurture? Or, do we just lack confidence?

Think Shenton is really starting to come of age now. If Atkins is injured, though, lets get Gleeson out there!!! Quickly.

I thought Kevin Brown had a decent turn of pace, he looked like he was running in cement for Widdops try. Danny Mcguire would have been under the sticks there and we'd have kicked the goal and had all the momentum

Widdop 6, did ok, one big error but defended well, covered in centre well as well.
Goulding 5 didnt offer much, worked hard but never looked a threat
Shenton 7 would have been an 8 or 9 had he played as well in the 1st half as he did the 2nd
Atkins 4 was poor while he was on, poor defence on 2nd NZ try
Briscoe 6 - good game, good player, looked dangerous and looks like a player who can make something special happen
Brown 5 im not sure what he offered
S Tomkins 7, good game, looked much better at FB than at SO
Fielden 4, didnt win the collision, lost vital ball, gave away penalties. Poor
Roby 7 see Shenton, poor first half, fantastic 2nd
Graham 8 ran well, good game, but looked knackered by the end, asked to do too much again.
Ellis 6 decent, didnt do anything particularly wrong nor did he do anything great. He is much better than this and we need him to show it.
Burgess 7 made good ground on the edges, good hits on defence, nothing amazing but did the basics well
O'Loughlin 9 defended well in the 1st half, did well on offence when given the space in the 2nd
Robinson 6 didnt do too badly, didnt really offer much though
Griffin 4 looked out his depth
Westwood 6, would be a 7 but for his discipline. Get rid of his brain farts and he is a quality player, he can sometimes be a liability
J Tomkins 5- didnt do anything to catch the eye, didnt seem to play a lot of minutes.

Mcnamara 6. Didnt get hammered which is a positive, But his big calls Griffin, Robinson, Brown Fielden didnt really pull it out of the bag for him. We looked knackered by the end of it, Griffin and Tomkins didnt seem to play a whole heap of minutes which leaves me to wonder how much further we could have pushed them with Lynch taking some of the work from Graham and Crabtree adding that impact. I think Mcnamara messed up by only having one out and out prop on the bench

Pie fan notices that Shenton has now signed for Saints....