ATEOTD The Crusaders are a business, an unsustainable one at that, so with all of this 'just let it slide' business and 'well it's a shame because they've done quite well this year', doesn't really matter as their business is shafted. I think it would be highly unfair if they were to go into administration and a new company formed and simply gifted a spot in Super League, when there is no promise that this won't happen at the end of next season, when there are other clubs that could be given a chance to prove themselves.

There were massive doubts before they were admitted to Super League, and unfortunately the doubters have been proven right. A new company should either be formed or this should just cease to exist and the RFL should concentrate on South Wales. It's sad for the fans who obviously are dedicated and passionate. Unfortunately business does not take any of these factors into consideration. It will be interesting to see what the Crusaders / RFL do about this complete mess.

If they reformed it wouldnt happen. There hasnt been many issues this year

But they've been happy to bring in the likes of Sammut & Schicovske during the season (pushing White & Kear out) on what will be good money rather than serviving the debt left by Samuel... surely that is a rather big issue?

Your naivety is admirable, however the RFL can do what they like!

There have been so many blunders over recent years, too many to catalogue.

As for the 5K crowds, I’d say they’d need about 8K to break even, and that’s paying fans, not freebies.

There is the argument though that if the club had been able to operate on a clean slate as they believed then they wouldn't be in this mess at the moment.

This seems to be a problem related to the old regime haunting the new one.

I'd agree I meant more if they can at least show signs of brining some money in and have a wealthy backer (Quins atm maybe?) it would be a start. Problem with Samuel is crowds were low and he wasn't very commited (obvious to the outside) so it was doomed to fail as had little to fall back on.

I'm glad somebody has notice Dico.

Since the move the club has got it's house in order. I managed to get all the merchandise I wanted or needed, the tickets were sent promptly and efficiently using an online ticket system where you could pick your actual seat and the rest of it was a marked improvement on the put 50p in the meter Bridgend attempt at Super League.

If we come out of this the other side, as I have stated previously I think we will go on to bigger and better things.

It's probably a good job that that's not what happened then.

I don't think their i smuch doubt that you will. Look at the wonders admin did for Widnes as a club. However maybe the extra cost of SL could be considered too much currently to set up with as well as get a decent side on the pitch?

Clearly the Crusaders did well off the pitch (& on) this season, however you they are also highly to blame for letting the debt fester i'm sure you'll agree? That needs to be cleared up before anything else can start otherwise all of expendeture the club made was just adding digits to the big -?

What has then?

All I read is... The club is run great now and all that debt was Samuel's fault from a previous administration, right or wrong?

I'm not talking about Crusaders. I'm talking about the reasons Widnes's 2008 bid was unsuccessful. To state that it "was rejected because of previous owner's debts" is simply a false description of the situation.

Just for the record - Steve O'Connor didn't pay off Stephen Vaughan's debts or at least not all of them. I believe he settled some liabilities to smaller traders as a gesture of goodwill but I doubt that he paid HMRC anything owed by the old club. Widnes Sport Ltd is a brand new company with no links to Widnes RLFC Ltd.

Isn’t this just a case of history repeating itself?

Didn’t London do this a few years ago, change their name, wrote off the debts, and came back stronger, oh I forgot, that last bit is a load of tosh, and will be again.

Quote ="J20" however you they are also highly to blame for letting the debt fester i'm sure you'll agree? '" Problem is J20, it doesn't look like the new owners were in the know about this liability.. This line is particularly telling. Quote They became aware of the problem when Government tax officials from Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs sought relevant paperwork. Read More www.walesonline.co.uk/sports/rug ... z14JnDrDn9'"

Quote ="J20" however you they are also highly to blame for letting the debt fester i'm sure you'll agree? '" Problem is J20, it doesn't look like the new owners were in the know about this liability.. This line is particularly telling. Quote They became aware of the problem when Government tax officials from Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs sought relevant paperwork. Read More www.walesonline.co.uk/sports/rug ... z14JnDrDn9'"

There's absolutely no evidence that going into admin, effectively wiping off large amounts of historic debt and then starting again does anything positive for any sporting organisation.

Yours

Ken Bates.

If the club was still in the state it was under Samuel I fully believe the RFL would let it go to the wall. The fact is I think the Wrexham lot have had a real go at it and it was like a completely different club from the off and continued to be so throughout the season.

We knew that they were tackling the CCJ's that were against the club and taking them one by one. They totalled £44,000 or so and the club were making progress in this regard. The tax bill has hit them with all the subtlety of a house brick to the face though and looks to be a knockout blow. I think the progress Wales have made in the past few years shows what can be achieved. I thought a lot of the debt had been wiped as the takeover happened previously but evidently not and some more debts seem to be rearing their ugly head all of the time. For peeople saying there are three clubs if this happens, it will be one club but two companies. The difference would be the slate would be wiped clean and the club would have a chance to show in the final season of this franchise whether we can stand on our own two feet. If we can't then kick us out of SL but if we can then I see no reason why we won't have proven we can be a valued member of SL. Taking into account last season until this tax bill and pension story broke it was viewed as a success. I fully believe next season will be if we come out the other side of this.

At the moment I'm so glad we are alive and evidently kicking with Wrexham Village wanting to keep Super League in North Wales. They could so easily have cut their losses and turned their back on league but they want it which is refreshing as a fan of the club.

You can’t seriously be comparing this situation to the one at the puffball club?

Why not try the one I have already mentioned, an expansion club in RL, a bit like London / Quins.

Why not try the one you think suits your argument and ignore everything else you mean?

Hardly playing Devil's Advocate, is it?

Widnes Vikings

The stadium is an appropriate size and well appointed following significant investment in recent years. The club has been in the difficult position of seeking to take into account the club’s historical attendance and playing records but naturally distancing itself from the previous regime’s financial record. The current company has only been in existence for a few months following insolvency in October 2007. Early indications are that under new ownership the club has made very good progress so far and has attracted good sponsors and the support of the local authority. The club has maintained a reasonable playing infrastructure despite being in the National League but this would require further investment to ensure that they could be competitive in Super League particularly within Club Trained rules.

Exactly.

The only thing I’m ignoring is the comparison you’re making regarding a struggling Rugby League club, and a Football team.

Whereas I am comparing a Rugby team in an expansion area with, well, another Rugby League team, in an expansion area.

Devil’s Advocate, give me a break, it I could see any positives in this whole sorry situation I would.

That's right (well, apart from the came back stronger bit) - and afterwards the RFL supposidly changed the rules so no-one could do it again.

Well unfortunately there was no clean slate. Otherwise it would have been even more of a shambles than it was. It makes no difference if 'Well we did OK this year so...' as the club was a continuation of Celtic Crusaders. Unfortunately we don't live in dream land where we can just brush things under the carpet and hope they don't come back to haunt you. Which is exactly what's happened here, if someone wants to come and pour money into the club to keep them going then fair enough. However I can't really see this happening unless there is some rich die hard Crusaders fan knocking about or failing that, the RFL could keep the club afloat purely on the basis of the expansion of RL.

The question is, is the club worth saving in its current state? That will be for Crusaders and the RFL to discuss. To me though, business wise, this is just not a viable venture as it stands. How far are we willing to go as a sport to 'expand'?

Sadly that applies to a lot of "professional clubs" not only in RL.