And a senior club dropping down a division some how prevents local rivalry?

Thank you for your eloquently thought out reply, I was under the impression that by-passing the swear filter was against Forum rules, oh, I forgot, you’re a higher intelligence, being a moderator and all.

No it doesn't , but it could conceivably reduce the interest in the sport in an area that is more likely to produce better quality players because of local rivalry , it could also lead to more juniors becoming interested in other sports in that area ,

It is what it is , nobody can prove anything either way

Thats very very transient though. If Wakefield go, and dont come back, within 10 years you will have a generation of young players, ready to get signed up to pro clubs, having played for amateur clubs who will have never known Wakefield as a top flight club. Within 5 years you will have a generation of young players at the stage ready to start playing amateur rugby who will have never known Wakefield as a top flight side.

These kids will still have heroes, they will just play for Leeds, Cas or Bradford than for WTW




Griffin, LMS, Clubb, not a massive list ill admit, and for a long time London RL didnt focus on London players but that has changed over the last ten years or so, and we already have two london, born, bread and trained RL players, and we have the likes of Alex Abbott-Tavener, Joe Keyes, Harry Lightfoot Brown, Olsi Krasniqi who are/have represented England at youth level. We have only one club in England outside the heartlands in SL, its no surprise there arent too many players from outside the heartlands, there's very little chance of them coming through, but that one club we do have has been very successful in that respect, and if we can replicate the success of their youth development in 3/4/5 other areas of the country the game will be a very healthy state

But you've just said it does, make your mind up.

And if you are trying to say that there are less players coming through in Leigh because you are not getting battered week in week out in the super league you are a bigger fool than i thought you were.

So your argument is that if we pick players from a wider pool of athletes, they are likely to be worse than the players we pick from a narrower pool of athletes. Its an interesting theory. Self-evidently nonsense, but interesting none the less.


I agree, if we have more, better athletes playing against each other then that will drive up performance. Strange then you would argue the opposite above. Im not sure the distance between them makes any difference.



Or if you have more of these young players they can play together in these 'super' clubs, and play against other 'super' clubs so that they are still having to work harder, but they are also working at a higher level. So these kids arent playing against a club with 3 good players, or 5 good players, they are playing against 17 good players, with 17 good players on their side. So they are playing at a higher level, working harder, with more intensity and being better players for it.
No, having good athletes, good coaches, good facilities, and a well thought out player development pathway is what you need. The distance between clubs on a tiny island like this one makes a barely noticeable difference

Who mentioned Leigh ?

A question

Which areas produce the best players ? , those that have lots of clubs both pro and junior , the more top pro clubs the bigger the interest in playing , therefore the more concentrated is the competition and rivalry between those clubs and the juniors playing for them

So yes eventually you might get players of better quality coming through in expansion areas , but in the short term they will only come from heartland areas

Those with the best junior coaches and facilities where talent can be spotted and nurtured.

What a strange strange strange conclusion. It takes a special type of bias for you to see the reason for heartland sides produce lots of players as because of the distance between clubs rather than the fact there is simply more amateur players, amateur teams and amateur coaches and the positive cycle that creates.

I honestly dont know how somebody thought the reason Wigan produce lots of players isnt because of the popularity of the game in Wigan, the amount of players in Wigan and the fact RL has the best pick of athletes in that area but because its a couple of miles from Leigh. Leeds dont produce a lot of players because of the masses of players who play in leeds, its huge catchment area and the money they put in to scouting and coaching youngsters, but because it is a few miles from Bradford, it is absolute madness

Well that screws SL dosn't it.

It's even more depressing when championship 1 clubs desire to have overseas players

Any more 30 year old past it crocked overseas players to sign for next year anyone?

Your comment is true in Australia only.

Elsewhere it is understood to be the joke it is.

Of course they HAVE been improving the game in this country since 1982 and continue to do so in the minds of those whose understanding of RL in this country is limited to my club, etc.

But GB/England or whatever are STILL no nearer beating the Aussies and Kiwis.

My sympathies are still with the 1000's of volunteers who spend their time and effort in trying to push aside the tide of apathy the pro game has for the amateur game and the lip service it provides even though there are people at Red Hall who try.

But , if I understand right, on Tuesday 26th July 2011 the future of the game is going to be announced as secure by the clubs who the RFL "independent"



panel deem have the shiniest, tidiest bog seats and can pass pretty pieces of paper about.

The excitement for a considerable number of people is underwhelming.

Unfortunately the amateur rugby you’re alluding to may wither on the vine as I stated in my initial post.

Yes, the memory of WTW will die for the next generation of young players, however, quite a few local set-ups may also go to the wall.

The parents / grandparents of a kid in Eastmoor, for instance, may not want to trail to Cas, or Leeds to take his son / grandson for training sessions & matches.

What do you think would happen if (theoretically) a club like Wigan were erased from the master Plan? Would all the superb talent produced happily play in the Red V, would the depth of amateur clubs continue around the town, if the said town no longer had a top class team?






I suppose that constitutes a list, but, there’s hardly a Gaz Ellis or a Benny Westwood in there.

Your ambitious vision for the future of the game outside the heartlands is commendable, but once again, you’ve failed to tell who’s going to foot the bill?

London’s philanthropist won’t be around for ever, and I see no Knight in Shining Armour coming to the aid of the Welsh project. So, as it’s the Red Hall dream, do you expect the RFL to foot the bill?

Really? you think that Amateur Rugby in Wakefield will go to the wall if Wakefield are relegated? how many new amatuer clubs are there in Wakefield since 1999?

Hasnt there been a club in Eastmoor since 1881? You really think the team would fold because there is now only one SL club in the district and 4 semi-pro clubs?

Yes, I believe if there were only one SL club in the Metropolitan District of Wigan they would still play RL in Wigan. Similarly if there was only one club in the metropolitan district of Wakefield, they would still play RL in Wakefield.


There's hardly a hundred year old amateur set up in London. In that context, and in the context of a comparison to areas with a similar histories and amateur set ups Wakefields history of youth development is nothing to be proud of.

Whose footing the bill now? Who foots the bill if Glover walks out? Who foots the bill if Paul Caddick walks out or Ian Lenegan?

I think you will find that currently the 2 areas which produce the best players are the Wigan area and the Wakefield area. Now include Castleford as being in the Wakefield area and I think it is fair to say that neither Cas or Wakey have the best facilities so I think that ruins your argument that facilities play a role in it.

What evidence do you have to back up your premise that the 2 areas which produce the best players are the Wigan and Wakefield areas? There a couple of clubs who produce a similar amount of players to Wigan, and a fair amount who produce more than Wakefield.

I think messes Noble, Davies and Kear had it right when disscusing the franchises. Davies especially calling for Quinns to be given the chop.

I never said which clubs brought the players through, I stated the areas where they came from. If you take the area where the players in Super League came from the two most represented would be the Wakefield Met area and the Wigan area.

Would it? As I said, where is your evidence for this?

And you do realise that this argument doesnt address the argument you thought it did dont you? The fact is the clubs with the best facilities, coaches, scouts and pathways bring through the best players.

Please provide evidence of this fact. Please put on here a linear graph showing the correlation between "the best facilities" and the "best players". I suggest you do one graph per "facility". I'm not interested in excercise bikes - just stick to buildings and people. Off you go. You have three hours.

Why would we allow you to define 'facilities' for me

There is no evidence. The fact that top international players like Gaz Ellis, Ben Westwood and Danny Brough just to name a few came through the Wakefield youth system which clearly does not have great facilities proves your point.

Danny Brough has never played a top tier international, by definition he isnt a top international player.

So your argument that Wakefield are one of the top two areas at producing talent in SL is they have produced Ellis, Westwood and Brough, as opposed areas like Leeds which has produced the likes of Carvell, Mcguire, Diskin, Hall, Smith, Ablett, JJB, Walker, and Peacock or Merseyside which has produced Graham, Roby, Wellens, Cunningham, or the masses of players from Greater Manchester and Cumbria?

Smokey, I haven’t got the will to dissect each paragraph, you believe that if W.T.W were cast into the abyss the grass roots systems would stay in place ad infinitum. Whereas I believe the opposite, & only time will tell who is correct.

You side-swiped the theoretical question re: Wigan.

If the Wigan club were banished from the top table, you really believe the lads from the feeder clubs would play for St Helens, I find that preposterous.

Wakefield’s history in youth development is nothing to be proud of? It’s been a conveyor belt of talent for Leeds for many years.

Regarding your question of who’s footing the bill, I presume you mean the Welsh project, to be honest, I haven’t got a clue. I know last year it was Red Hall, not sure about this season, maybe the avid expansionist on here could have a whip-round. The next three years, well, they could become a team challenging for the G.F with a Wembley appearance under their belts, with attendances rising to 8,000. Or they may continue buying bargain basement players, bumping along the bottom, generating even less supporters & going bust, crystal ball time…

If we’re both alive & kicking in ten years, I would like to revisit the outcome, to apologise, or, await yours.

Yes, i certainly do. I think the lads in Wigan will play for their local amateur side and if they are fortunate enough to be offered professional terms by any club they will accept them, they wont reject them because Wigan arent in the top flight any more. It would be nonsense to suggest so.

I cant believe that any kid would turn down the opportunity to be a professional RL player because St Helens offered them terms and Wigan werent able to.

Not really, and Wakefield have had more than their fair share of Leeds products playing for them over the years.

It wasnt the RFL really though was it. The RFL no more 'footed the bill' than paying for a meal in a restaurant on a credit card means mastercard are 'footing the bill'.

Maybe the flatcappers could have a whip round to help your double glazing salesman pay for half a million or so increase in wages he is promising for your club which has lost hundreds of thousands over the preceeding years. Maybe so.

Just put the bloody graphs on here.

Crusaders have to be the ones to go.
1. Awful attendances.
2. Bottom of SL 2/3 years.
3. Awful financial management.
4. Not really and 'expansion' team now they are located in Wrexham.