I was pro the idea of Toulouse joining the Championship but on reflection I agree with Starbugs point and think it's a pointless exercise for a french club.
The catalans model was by far the best to follow and I fail to see the point in wasting time and resources all round in the Chp.
If a team like Toulouse wanted to stay in the Chp permanantly, maybe, different issue but there's no point in using as a stepping stone

I'd say the opposite that there is no point in Toulouse being there permanently. If it isn't a stepping stone to Sl either in 2012 or 2015 then a lot of time and money has been wasted.

Though I don't see why they couldn't have built a team in Elite 1. As you say Catalans did so.

Yes agree with that. I understand that for some the national leagues is still a model to follow but it just won't happen. If French RL clubs are in a European SL with TV money from different countries why would they commit financial suicide to go in a smaller national league to play smaller teams? It seems to me as likely as the Broncos leaving the NRL to play in Queensland Cup. It would just not make sense for them.

And from my point of view, a pan-European competition is much more fun.

Yes, the Championship is actually quite straining for the finances of the club as it does not raise that much the visibility of the club in France while it requires to invest much more in the wage bill... during 3 years. Not sure this is the best use of the club's time and money to make it an SL club.
Concerning the SF I don't think that proposing 3 years in Championship to the SF first would be the right way to proceed. SF is one of the richest RU clubs in Europe, if they build an SL project with serious financial guarantees, offering them to have first a spell in second tier division for 3 years would be a bit... well weird.

, but it was of no benifit to the Championship 1 clubs as they would never get the opportunity to play them , because they were excempt from relegation ,

Toulouse should have been specifically told that they were going into SL in 2012 , and that they would play a full round of games in the Championship in 2011 to prepare , these games would not count on the 2011 chapionship season table and would be funded by the SL clubs , also their inclusion would not affect the inclusion of a Championship club moving up to SL in 2012

Not difficult , it just needed some bollox from the RFL

Money doesn't necessarily equal success. Paris St Germain also had deep pockets but the rugby league side lasted only two seasons.

wrong.

PSG had very poor finances.

they didnt get to keep much of the gate takings as it went to the company owning the ground.

but hey, ignore the facts.

The facts were that not many people were interested in paying to watch them , once all the free tickets stopped their attendances were abysmal

But lets not let the truth get in the way eh

In this version of reality Paris St Germain is the name of one of France's leading soccer clubs......

Just as Stade Francais are a leading rugby union club.

Are you saying that Stade Francais are richer than Paris St Germain (soccer club dally)?

Well the story is complex.
* Even if the PSG in itself is rich, Rugby is not its activity. It was plugged on the club. This meant that the ability/willingness of the club to face difficulties was certainly smaller than it would be for SF for which a long term investment in RL is more meaningful.
* The tickets were free in Paris, which means that the income of the club was not that good. It was meant to be a starting commercial trick to bring the crowd in the large stadium which is Charletty (20,000) but the crowd dwindled down with the bad results.
* More importantly the PSG project was backstabbed by the French federation and the French clubs who saw it a a merceneray project not in line with their own interest. Clubs only lent their player for the first year, and in the second year refused to provide them full stop. As a consequence the team was filled with Australians which was very costly and perhaps not the best to attract local crowds.

Overall, it a was a hastily designed project, without the support of the French clubs and federation, with a club which has not much interest in rugby per se. It could have worked if Parisians had rushed to the gates naturally, but it did not happen.
The good thing with SF is that the situation is different.
* It is a RU club with a large fanbase interested in it, a RL club playing in their home ground would from the start benefit from a part of their supporters. The SF chairman is an entrepreneur who excels in attracting crowds. He broke the world record of attendance for a national division game by filling the Stade de France for the SF (SF was in third division when he took over the club).
* The SF project is now fully backed by the French federation as the Dragons experiment has shown them that SL is the only way to save French RL from slow death.
* I am not sure that the PSG had lots of cashflow as the football team creates debt. On the contrary SF has lots of money to use, even more with the creation of a salary cap in RU (7 million euros while its current wage bill is 20 millions).

Frankly, when the RFL saw the SF approaching them, I think they must have rubbed their hands.

It does not mean everything must be given to the SF. This club needs to give strong guarantees. But if it does (and I am pretty sure it can), then 3 years in Championship would just be to forego the benefits of its inclusion right now. Also, Laporte (former SF and French national team coach) who is carrying the project for the club may find a better job that three years as the coach of team in a second tier division. The opportunity is here now for the taking...

im saying PSG rugby league club had very poor finances.

anyone that says they were good doesnt know what they are on about

I've underlined the bits which are key.

Rugby league has a history of soccer clubs investing in add-on rugby league sections in the hope of raising extra cash for their main interest and when the expected returns don't materialise the rugby league team gets abandoned. It happened to PSG and it has happened 6 or 7 times in the UK.

Stade Francais offer the possibility of a different outcome but I think it is naive to assume that since they are a "rugby" club that their motivation is pure. Are they genuinely interested in rugby league or are they just hoping to make some cash?

The other thing being the involvement of the FFR13, whilst you say that this time they are on board, I can well imagine that not everybody is keen, in particular Catalans and Toulouse. I would like to see "co-operation" in practice rather merely promised.

The other issue is that crowds haven't materialised at Quins RL despite their involvement with the large Harlequins rugby union side. It seems that fans' club ties don't extend to following a side of the same name in a different sport in London and they may not in Paris either.

Again with the salary cap, the English union clubs have a salary cap but it is not enforced, I don't think any side has ever been punished for breaking it and it hasn't prevented big name union sides from getting themselves into financial trouble. Will France be different?

I'm not keen on Laporte being coach either just as I wouldn't want Clive Woodward to take over at Harlequins RL. His credentials as a union coach are beyond reproach but this is rugby league we are talking about.

All in all I think 2012 is too early and unless the Stadistes were prepared to put down a large sum of money as a deposit, I would be worried about them doing a Crusaders on us. Toulouse are a better bet right now (and they need to have a good season on the field).

I didn't say that the rugby league club had good finances. I said Paris St Germain were one of France's leading sporting teams, perhaps THE leading one after Olympique Mille (back then anyway). That things didn't work illustrates that cash alone isn't enough if the backer isn't really committed.

My opinion as well , personally I'd want to see a 6 year commitment financially , and clear guarantee's that they wont just poach all Les Cats and Touloue's players , if that meant a mostly overseas squad to begin with fine , as long as they pour money into junior development in the Paris area

fair enough

The finances are different in France because a large part of the clubs incomes come from local government.

I don't think you're ever going to get a club entering directly into the top flight whose motives are entirely 'pure' - the RL club is there to help with their plans for a new stadium. I'm sure the backers realise that for a tenth of what they spend on the RU club currently they can put together a team which can be playing at Wembley or Old Trafford within a couple of years; whether you call that pure again depends on your point of view.

SF chairman, Guazzini said in 2007 that he'd like to see RL at his stadium as he likes RL from his youth in Mille where he was following the RL team playing there. I'd think there is more than a commercial interest. Though, even if the interest is only commercial, I'd trust Guazzini to make it work.


I think the Federation is 100% behind this project, simply because they know it would change radically the status of RL in France for the better. Catalans will be be for it as well, as it would increase visibility of RL in France, hence TV and sponsors money. For this same reason they support the inclusion of Toulouse. If they had to choose, Paris would even be better for them as it would have a bigger media impact. For Toulouse it is different. SF is clearly a threat to their bid. Whilst I think the inclusion of both Toulouse and SF in 2012 is the best option, it is clearly not the most likely a priori. But what can Toulouse do against the SF application? Nothing, apart trying harder on the pitch this year.


Things are different in Paris. First London is saturated by sports clubs while it is not the case in Paris. Second the SF stadium is ideally located in the centre of Paris while the Stoop is not that close for most londoners. Third, there is a snobbism against RL in London which does not exist in Paris. Finally, I don't know of Quins marketing strategies, but I'd trust SF ones to work.


I support Toulouse and I wish for them to be in SL in 2012. But to be honest, I'd think that there is no comparison with a SF bid. Toulouse is working hard but it is a small club while SF would have the cashflow and the know-how to make it work quickly. I'd expect them to do very well quickly.
If you had a choice between working with your neighbour at his shop and Sir Alan Sugar proposing to build a business with you from scratch, I think you'd better chose the latter.

Sounds good to me

It doesn't matter where your money comes from if you spend more than you earn then you will lose money. The salary cap is designed to prevent clubs from doing this but unless it is policed then it will be ineffective.

Toulouse and Catalans have players that Paris would want. Is there the political will to release them to build a Paris super club?



In Leeds you have it the other way round. Leeds Rhinos are the best supported rugby league club in the Northern Hemisphere and champions three times back-to-back but Leeds Tykes / Carnegie are a poorly supported yo-yo team despite there being no widespread prejudice against rugby union in Leeds and it being widely played in West and North Yorkshire.

Loyalty to Rhinos didn't translate to support for Tykes despite them being owned by the same company.



It depends on what I was doing and hoping to achieve. Sugar has achieved a lot of things but has had his disasters from time-to-time, clearly he isn't a good judge of soccer managers (among other things).

Well I would not expect that the drain on Catalans and Toulouse would be that bad. There are loads of good players in Elite who could be used in a team half filled with Aussies. I'd guess that's what would happen. In any case, I am sure Catalans would prefer to lose some players with Paris in rather than to have Paris out. That is the best option for them. For Toulouse as I said it is different, but they don't have any influence on the SF application.


Hum, well I don't know the Leeds situation, but I'd think it would work better for SF. Also we are talking about the same club here, not another club in Paris. As anecdotical as it is, on the SF RU [url=http://www.stade.fr/forum/showthread.php?t=35549&highlight=xiiiforum[/url, fans seem to be interested by the prospect.


Lol, well it would always be a gamble as the SF is, but I think it'd be a very fair gamble to take!

A popular missconception that all successful businessmen are in some way exempt from cocking up big style , so many times on here we are told " they know what they are doing , they have built a huge fortune " , and then as soon as they are in charge of a sports club it all goes pear shaped

A huge part in many successful businessmens armour is luck , plain and simple luck , being in the right place at the right time , and a big weakness is not realising that in sport you dont have the same control that you can excert in a normal business ,

Well at least with Guazzini we are talking of a sport businessman who know how to turn a third division club in one of the most successful in Europe.

Can't argue with that.

But what is happening in France at the moment is that there are a whole bunch of local government bodies effectively competing to have a top 14 club in their area by funding the local RU team. And that's why these clubs are able to sign top RU and RL players from around the world. And the playing budget is available up-front & guaranteed; it's not so reliant on ticket sales, for example. The stadia have also always been council owned. So changes in the budget are more related to local elections & similar, rather than the club being well run or otherwise. There are some exceptions - Toulon being one.

If the French RU do go for a salary cap, it might mean Gasnier or Sonny Bill are available for SF XIII?

Leeds Rhinos and Leeds Carnegie share the same stadium, the same internet site are owned by the same company (Leeds Rugby), wear the same colours, have shared players e.g. Ewan Dowes, Liam Botham but few Rhinos fans are interested in Carnegie.