Hull FC have 6. 4 genuine overseas players:

Fitzgibbon
Moa
Lauaki
O'Meley

Manu and Berrigan are somehow exempt.

Webb, Lauitiiti, Buderus are obviously internationals,

Cross has played SoO and won a GF with Melbourne, he was also in the 2008 Aussie train-on squad but didnt go the world cup

Lueluai played for NZ Maori at the 2000 world cup and Samoa at the 2008 world cup, but that doesnt really count

Thanks.

Add to that list NZ international Hansen and thats 8. Terrible effort for such a big club who claim to be one of the best at bringing through youngsters.

Royston
Herbert
Hall
L'Estrange
Kearney
Ah Van

But they are all high quality players.

There are plenty of Wigan lads in their team, and Tomkins & O'Loughlin are two huge parts of their team.

Is that Harrison Hansen that was brought up here, played all of his junior rugby here and represented England academy? If by your logic you are saying he is an overseas player then you could argue that Richards is Irish and not Australian.

How old was Hansen when wigan signed him? What club was he playing for and where did he live at the time?

He was raised in Swinton/Salford since near enough being a toddler, played for Folly Lane ARLFC, signed for Wigan's youth scholarship, played for Wigan and England academy & was promoted into the first team from our reserves.

Don't be stupid.

Winning the Grand Final with academy products and mostly Wigan born players such as Harrison Hansen, Sam Tomkins, Joel Tomkins, Micky McIlorum, Liam Farrell, Paul Prescott, Darryl Goulding, Sean O'Loughlin plus Wiganers Paul Deacon and Martin Gleeson was pretty satisfying and something most clubs will never be able to boast about. Not to mention the academy products such as O'Carroll, Tuson, Mossop, Charnley, Davies and and Marsh who all played a part during the season.

Also, every player mentioned above will have a roll to play with Wigan Rugby League next year.

We have a fantastic and champion blend of local, academy and foreign players with the latter being one less for 2011 compared to 2010.

Cas

Mcgoldrick
Evans
Youngquest
Chase
Widders

But we have one place left on the quota has Evans is exempt.

It is still too many.

Its a little disingenuous to claim players like Tuson and Charnley played a part during last year and highlight them as evidence of your commitment to youth development when both were loaned out to other clubs as their place was taken by an overseas player and you have kept on a fairly old George Carmont and brought in Ryan Hoffman.

Hoffman has taken bailey's place. Our backrow competition consists of Harrison Hansen, Joel Tomkins, Liam Farrell and Chris Tuson (maybe Mossop if he isn't considered a prop). Collectively, its an inexperienced back row and Hoffman's presence will be essential.

Charnley's never had a place, he's still fighting for one. Carmont has been within the first team squad longer than Charnley but is expected to be replaced next year. Maybe then will Charnley be deemed as ready.

Chris Tuson that played 14 matches for Wigan this year?
And of course we were going to drop our average ex-dream team player for an unproven young player, that's totally logical and every other team does it.

And how dare we bring in an Origin and Australian international, a New Zealand international and an Origin player to hold us over for a few years as we don't rush our kids through despite making a net loss in imports.

its not that inexperienced, Hansen is in his 7th year now, Tomkins his fifth.

If Hoffmans presence is 'essential' then fine bring him in. But if they were really that committed to giving opportunities young british players then there are overseas players elsewhere who arent 'essential' who would make way.

Well you can really say he had a part to play last year in that case can you?

Charnley will never be ready if he isnt given games, He is 20 next season, for a centre he isnt a baby, he should be making first grade now and his performances at Hull KR proved he was ready for the opportunity.

We've let 5 overseas players go and brought in 3 and we'll continue to lower that number over the next couple of years i'm sure with guys like Carmont and Roberts nearing the end of their careers and Hoffman only having a 1 year deal. I'll admit the number we go into next year with isn't ideal but unlike alot of clubs our overseas players are all top class and are backed up by a mixture of experienced homegrown players and a fantastic junior set up that will continue to reap benefits for Wigan and England for a number of years. I'm expecting 2 guys inparticular in Marsh and Charnley to step up their development with extra opportunities next season. They have both moved up a place with Phelps leaving and more then likely will move up another step with the likely exit of Karl Pryce. They are both really exciting prospects for Wigan and the English game.

The game has alot more to worry about then the amount of oversea's players Wigan have got in their ranks.

how is a young player supposed to prove themselves if they dont get the opportunity?

how are they supposed to gain the experience needed to become a player of George Carmonts quality if they arent playing regular first team football?

its giving that young player the opportunity that is a commitment to youth.

you havent brought in 1 Australian International, 1 new zealand international and an origin player to hold you over for the next couple of years. You have brought in and kept on 3 NRL players who didnt make it to Origin or international (top tier level) 2 NZ internationals, 1 Australian international and SoO player.

These boys you are 'not rushing' arent babies, backs at 19/20 dont need overseas players holding the first team for them, they need first team games.

Which is good and moving in the right direction, but how are Marsh and Charnley going to step up with George Carmont there? How is a player with very little experience supposed gain the experience if we dont give them the time, space, and first team games to develop?

Wigan do have a good junior set up, among the best in the country, and they bring through some good players, but next year half of their first team squad is likely to be overseas players.

And why are we keeping players like Roberts who have 'something to prove' and 'need to earn the shirt' when we have players like Charnley and Marsh not getting games, and Pryce and Ainscough being released. There is something wrong in our game when a 29 year old Australian like Roberts is kept on as a project but a 24 year old Karl Pryce and 20 year old Shaun Ainscough are released.

If Tuson played 14 SL games in 2010, that is more than Jay Pitts, Kyle Amor, Michael Coady, Kallum Watkins and Tom Bush put together.

What I would like to know is:

How is a young player supposed to prove themselves if they dont get the opportunity?

How are they supposed to gain the experience needed to become a player of George Carmonts quality if they arent playing regular first team football?

Surely, its giving that young player the opportunity that is a commitment to youth!

For me there should be no loopholes to get round this stupid quota thing. It should be 4 overseas players next year end of. No 'oh but please this aussie has lived in England for 5 whole years he has fish and chips for his tea every friday and his great great great grandads best mate went to college in Ireland to [itechnically[/i he is British'.

Im on the fence about Wigan's overseaas players. I do think we have to many at the moment but I do think people go overboard with the criticism. We have one of the best youth policys in SL and players do come through, and I know for a fact Lenegan is building towards a massively homegrown based first team squad. We've got 7 overseas players so far and if we take out 3 of them it in no way effects the quality of the team IMO:

1. Sam Tomkins
2. Darrell Goulding (Amos Roberts)
3. Martin Gleeson
4. Josh Charnley (George Carmont)
5. Pat Richards (Overseas)
6. Brett Finch (Overseas)
7. Paul Deacon
8. Stuart Fielden
9. Thomas Leuluai (Overseas)
10. Andy Coley
11. Joel Tomkins
12. Harrison Hansen (Ryan Hoffman)
13. Sean O'Loughlin

14. Jeff Lima (Overseas)
15. Michael McIlorum
16. Lee Mossop
17. Liam Farrell

But as a squad with those 3 players in we are miles and miles stronger. Once their contracts are up players like Josh Charnley, Stefan Marsh, Ben Davies will be ready to make that step up to SL and our overseas players will just be of immense quality.

However if I supported Hull KR or Wakefield, I would be more worried about it, because it is questionable whether they have the youth set up to replace these overseas players once their contracts are up.

you have chosen some odd analogues, its desperate even for you

Kallum Watkins was suffered a season ending injury in round 6 having played 5 of the first 6 games, he played 13 games in the 2009 season, he is two years younger than Chris Tuson. We can safely say that bar pathetic point scoring from desperate Hull Kingston Australia fans he can be left out of this debate, had he been physically able to he would have played more games last year.

Tom Bush isnt good enough, i would be suprised if he ever plays for Leeds again, and wouldnt have played had it not been for an horrendous injury crisis and isnt even a full time player.

Kyle Amor and Mike Coady were never meant to play first team last year, it was their first season as full-pros and it was a getting up to speed season for them.

Jay Pitts made 9 first team appearances, as did Luke Ambler, Chris Clarkson made 13, Paul McShane also made 9 which for some reason you have conveniently ignored, i wonder why you could have done that eh?

By the way Tuson made 12 not 14 appearances in SL for Wigan last year.

For next year Leeds have released Diskin to give game time to McShane, now you in your desperate crusade to ignore all sense of scale (a little tip 7 is more than 6) you may ask why release Diskin and keep an overseas player in Buderus. Well Diskin's contract ran out at the end of next year and he wouldnt have been given another as the club will promote Liam Hood, and he was offered a 3 year contract at Bradford which at his age would likely be his last contract.

However none of this impacts on the fact Wigan have 7 overseas players which is too many, as Leeds have 6 which is also too many. Im really not sure how many times I can say Leeds have too many before you stop thinking that you saying Leeds have too many in some way proves me wrong rather than you just restating something i have already told you.

I fully agree,

where i have highlighted is the big problem, you dont need them players, therefore you shouldnt have them. If their jobs can be done by the players you mentioned (which i agree with you, they can) then they should be, and another younger player has the opportunity act a reserve.

But the thing is though, When we signed players like Amos Roberts and George Carmont, Players like Darrell Goulding and Josh Charnley were nowhere near ready for regular first team action, they were signed as a stop gap so to speak while the club worked hard in developing these young lads. Its payed off massively so far with the likes of Goulding and Sam Tomkins and hopefully it will for Josh Charnley and the rest too.

I have absolutely no idea why we have signed Ryan Hoffman - Ian Lenegan mentioned something about the shortness of his deal being something to do with how Gareth Hock turns out, but still I cant understand why we have signed him when we have Joel, Farrell, Hansen, Tuson and Mossop who can all obvioulsy do a job. But one things for sure now at Wigan if he isnt performing as well as Joel etc Maguire wont play him.

Is the problem the overseas players?

I thought the problem was the English players. Everyone keeps telling us that Wigan and Leeds are great they produce all these young guns and invest in home talent - those are the lads who keep getting shown up at international level!

indeed, so the solution is to make them better. To do that we need clubs to invest more in scouting and coaching young british players, and getting more of them so that the pool we have isn't so limited.

we need to have more players, and train them better to produce more better players, and clubs arent doing that whilst they can rely on the NRL.

theres absolutely nothing wrong with having 3 or 4 top quality australian/kiwi test players or origin players in our super league teams...infact it should be actively encouraged...


its the no name players like marc herbert...who bradford have just signed..thats destroying our game!!

we can produce our own average players thank you very much