as an example, Hull FC lost £300,000 last year, all out of AP's pocket.

I stated my point in my post that only a select number of clubs are self sufficient and successful. I only picked out Leigh because I was replying to a post referencing Leigh but as MorePlaymakersNeeded points out there are many clubs dependent on financial benefactors.

Okay.

London broncos received a semi-final shalocking at the hands of wigan in 2013.....david hughes was furious and onnthe point of walking away..... He was convinced by the rfl to stay but by the time that was agreed, it was too late to build a side for 2014 and we went down. If it werent for his continued £2,000,000 a year generosity london broncos wouldnt even exist any more. I dont agree with many of his decisions, but without him ans his like, the game in the uk survives purely on tv cash..... I doubt many would cope in sl if it werent for the TV cash........ Same in the NRL

Well I agree entirely with you that this TWP thing has to be fully played out to the end, but only because very few people seem to grasp that it has actually been played out and those who make the decisions have already come to a conclusion TWP agreed with. The TWP project as per Perez was to benefit the game here by developing North American players to widen the Pro-player pool and bring in extra NATV money to widen the games income at pro-level. On winning a Superleague place SL bosses declared TWP were just an anglo-aussie side owned by an Aussie wearing Canadian jerseys and nothing more. On commenting on the clubs inclusion TWP confirmed (1) They weren't going to be developing any North American players and (2) nor would they get any paying NATV deals.

How you conclude that we have to wait two seasons before making a judgement that has already been made by SL (announced publicly by McManus) and accepted by TWP (openly admitted by McDermott), well, with respect your not alone on this. What did you think was the measure of success for the TWP project that we supposedly cannot measure for another two years??. Open question to anyone who thinks TWP have made it or are on the way to doing so??

Ultimately, eyes on Superleague (not just those in attendance although replacing London with TWP will raise the overall numbers anyway), sponsorship and the next tv deal. TWP have already brought a whole load of media coverage and I’m interested to see if that translates into wider interest.

You mention the player development (which was never going to happen overnight) and other steps they haven’t taken but worth remembering that they are also not receiving any central funding. Of course they should be doing more here but so should a lot of clubs (mine included which has been in existence over 100 years longer).

I get that not everyone is on board with this especially traditional rugby league fans but the sport doesn’t need to target them to grow - it needs to target the casual fans who’s interest is piqued these days by the big international brands and big name players. I love rugby league but we’ve got to convince other people to love it to - putting the same effort into the likes of Bradford/Leigh/Widnes (no offence to anyone) is unlikely to inspire these casual fans in the same way.

Anyway, I’ve fallen into the ‘Toronto trap’ here. I’m more concerned about my own club and Toronto can sort themselves out I’m sure.

TWP will have no impact on TV or Sponsorship, Canada isn't a market for Sky, Bet365 etc.

You certainly have mate.

people need to bear in Mind that TWP would need to be kicking off at 13:00 local time to hit a 6 O'clock UK kick off, 5 hours behind the UK.

Toronto have now played 3 seasons in the English competition and have delivered very little benefit to the game in the Northern Hemisphere.
A few media bursts and that's about it. When they played games at London Skolars they delivered minimal crowds, when they played a game at HKR they contributed hardly any uplift in the gate, to the extent that it wasn't declared and they delivered fewer than 2k when they played in Newcastle. They have failed to attract "casual" sports fans to the game, one of the things that their apologists claim. Running a Beer Festival on match day and handing out tickets like confetti, whilst PAYING A PRODUCTION COMPANY TO FILM YOU and then giving that away is nothing more than a vanity project which is being built on foundations of Sand.

I posted elsewhere that if SBW is to play 58 SL games in his 2 years there he will be on £86,000 a game based on a £5,000,000 salary over 2 seasons. 11 Games will be played at Lamport in 2020....let's assume it's 22 over SBW's 2 seasons........if they filled Lamport with ST Holding fans over the 2 years they'd take £3,370,000...so they are in a £1,630,000 hole even if they fill the stadium for every game with paying fans and that's a loss based on 1 players wages. Flights, accommodation, Food, Training facilities, stadium rent, backroom wages (Brian Mac will be on a wedge, as will Nobby)......it's fair to "guess" they will make a massive loss in 2020 and 2021 and any "star" players they try to sign for 2021 will be well aware of the money SBW's on........

...argyle is minted, so good luck to the fella, but how long will the SL bosses accept this interloper of a club that will cost them in lost gate receipts and in all probability less money from their TV partner?

Rubbish.

When Toulouse played Toronto at Stade Ernest Wallon this year the attendance went from the usual 1700- 2300 up to over 6,000! The increase was not from the Canadians living in Toulouse. It was obviously from the casual sports fans whom they attracted to the game.

Utter Tripe, but to be expected from the faux french Oker.

The made an "event" of the game and moved it to the more popular Wallon stadium as the normal residents there were in a time out, as the French Union side was in Dublin the day after featuring 6 players who would normally be there....where they averaged 18k and change in the top 14 and 15k and change this season for the visit of Connaught and Montpellier (where my wife got her degree...but I digress) in the European top tier comp.

Secondly....and only as Stepanie seemed keen to bring up grammar....the following is incorrectly worded. I would forgive you if English was not your mother tongue, but it is, so I don't.

There is a recent League Express article that you can find on Toronto’s impact on away attendance. It contains all the numbers needed for you to come to your own conclusions.

Axey, you need to behave

Many thanks for kindly replying.

On the players issue I have to remind you exactly what the player development plan was. It was the conversion of Grid Iron players to RL players and YES it was to happen pretty much "overnight", they started the trials and it all quickly fell apart. Therefore I do not know how you can say "It won't happen overnight" and try to indicate we have to wait 20 years for the development of Canadian kids into RL professionals. We can wait 200 years but it cant happen as there is no junior ARL in Canada and again McDermott isn't going to start any and Argyle would be dead before any kids come through.

"Media coverage" was defined as paying North American TV deals. Both growth targets were fully defined by Perez and Argyle and the definition you present of "media coverage" isn't that. it's a TV contract to give parity with clubs here who have a TV contract. So to summarise what TWP promised on entry to Superleague they didn't provide. They provided nothing.

You haven't fallen into a trap at all, and you are not alone, you are just one of many who won't accept TWP failed miserably. Anyway until TWP actually produce a player or a few dollars TV money to share here, do you think New York or Ottawa should be allowed to come in? It's no "Trap" I just want to understand this alternative view?

I’d say no on Ottawa for the player development reasons and ongoing uncertainties you have mentioned but I’m lead to believe (by those with far more interest than me in the subject) that there is a stronger rugby league player base already existing in New York/the US so I’d be less against their introduction if this is the case. I think letting them in lower down the ladder or waiting until we see how Toronto fare in SL is obviously the safer route though.

Very grateful for your reply, and delighted to agree. I would not let Ottawa in - noting Perez "promised" junior development this time, but come on Eric we have heard all this before. Stay at the Bulls and do something good there for once.....

Delighted to agree on New York only on the basis that a USARL actually exists, and no matter how much some deride that league, it's a framework to build on. Have a good Xmas sir!

Too many clubs (as discussed above) have survived on affluent owners having to fund losses out of their own pocket. We've bucked the trend by having owners with no money, who can't fund losses at all. Eric can stay as long as he maintains this solid and endlessly pleasurable business model. We could rename Odsal Ottawa, see if that fools him.

Across the game the preparedness of owners to gift money to their clubs creates a bit of a lottery. We can have big clubs whom we need in Superleague struggling with no rich owner, and little clubs who have a benefactor enjoying a Superleague place but contributing little to the party. Obviously we can't tell rich owners which clubs they can spend their money at, as most appear to spend it because they have a personal affinity to the club they choose to be at.

Martin Luther King had a dream, and so do I, albeit not quite as brilliant as his, however imagine Perez and Argylle taking over Bradford Bulls, with Argylle funding the rebuilding of Odsal as the wembley of the north, and putting a winning side in there. What's not to like about that! It's a shame to see the man wasting so many £millions on simply the wrong plan. This thread is about the TV deal and the news so far is it won't be big enough for any more than 10 clubs and McManus stated at least 9 have to be English for the English audience.

It therefore appears impossible for the likes of Ottawa to ever get into Superleague or TWP to stay there, and Argyle, Perez and Wood must know this. AFAIK Argyle most of all wanted an NRL club, and it appeared he was toying with London Skolars. It's not therefore a pipedream he could actually land at Odsal where I could not see any sane true RL fan grumble about that?.

...and whilst I love Toronto as a city to visit, once Argyle's wolfed down the chicken and spinach karahi at KARACHI, he'll be looking to relocate to bd6 in a heartbeat

Toronto are here to stay. It’s no different to London who have someone willing to fund their massive losses with nothing in return. The only difference is Toronto have far much more money than London and have 10 times the supporter base.

Yeah, they'll still be around in a 100 years !

Probably will be.

But Leigh won’t be

YAWN, your obsession is worrying.

Just wait until the season starts,and Leigh lose a game. There will be wallpaper paste splattered all over his computer.