That's assuming we've seen the last of Chase of course.

Kevin Brown is the best HB in England (assuming Brough is Scottish). He should have been 6 with Widdop at 7.

And therein lies the problem with the British game - Brown is ok and certainly worth a shout with what we have available, but would he have an impact at International level??

The standard of half back in the modern game, or at least what is demanded of a half back, is very, very average.... A John Woods or a Andy Gregory with this present England side would make a massive difference.

A half back should be a spark - most nowadays are just there to do the basics like pass the ball on along the line, or hoof the ball upfield on the fifth tackle and, bizarrely, anybody who can do this reasonably well, is seen as some sort of genius.

Unfortunately, with kids being brought up on the modern game, which is so sterile and structured, the days of the half back being the master locksmith to an opposition's defence will very soon be long forgotten - Let's not forget, we presently have a champion side which won their title by having NO half backs.

I don't think it's a case of young lads having the spark trained out of them in favour of structure. HB's need to have natural talent. Natural ability. We simply have not produced those types of HB since the likes of Edwards and Gregory. In the same way that Aussies struggle with ball-playing forwards, an area where we produce plenty. People suggesting Brown could do a job at International level are right. He could be an excellent water carrier.

Until another one comes along, and we must be due one, we have to put up with solid HB's like Smith, or stupidly play forwards in the halves.

I agree totally with the natural talent point. However, if young kids are being introduced to the game thinking that the Matty Smith-style of half back is the norm, then it is almost inevitable that any youngster thinking of going the half back route, will grow up believing the modern-day basic method is the way to go and the more old-school off-the-cuff half back will become extinct.

The problem is that many clubs have now adopted the sterile method where flair is a distant second to disciplined structure - Would a teenage John Woods, Andy Gregory, or even Lee Briers be allowed to develop into the off-the-cuff players they were in the 2014 RL academies, or would they have it drilled out of them at an early stage in their careers?

Brown over Widdop? Get off that crack you drug-crazed fiends. The was won in defence. They shut down our attack and we couldn't slow down their's.

Why move a 6 in Widdop to 7 just to accommodate another 6 who is not as good? That's almost ridiculous as moving Tomkins to centre just to accommodate Hardaker.

There is no difference between 6&7 in some/most teams, one on the left, one on the right. Brown is the only creative HB available, certainly as a classic SO. He made twice the metres of Smith despite being in a far less competitive team. Smith is a poor man's Deacon without the kicking skills.

Who is going to provide us with our kicking game if Smith isn't in the team? Certainly not Brown, who has more mistakes in him than either of the current pair. If he was Tommy Martyn then perhaps I could agree but he isn't. He's a poor man's Nigel Wright.

Travesty of injuries.

Had everything other than luck.

I'v said this before, at junior level too many clubs use ' feeder clubs ' pushing all the best young talent to 1 place, you create a situation where young HB s dont need to develop because they already have the best FB, the biggest forwards and the fastest backs

Perfect example of that is St George, with Widdop and Benji Marshal, they do it to great effect too

To answer the OP I'm perfectly happy with Widdop and Smith, there is lots to come from these two, I don't think we need to find anyone better, they just need time to play together

Had a belting girlfriend.



Seriously though, Nigel should be down in the annals as the last great GB half-back, he was unplayable at his best.

Ive never been a Smith fan

However he did a good job - Undoubtedly Widdop is our best half

I think it was the best half back performance for some time for England - Yes not perfect but a vast improvement, Not having to rely on a LF playing at 6 anymore is certainly a great starter

I thought both performances were good (Not sure about the Samoa game, either we were under par or they were better than expected).

Against Oz', we had two crucial chances to win the game, with breaks of 3 against 2, sadly on both occasions the ball carrier held on for too long. If just once the ball had been passed wide the game would've been won and thats without any "fingertip-gate" discussion.

Against the Kiwis, if Ryan Hall doesn't lose his grip, we win, sadly he did, so we lose.

It's been ages since I last felt we were about to win, well ages against Oz', only last year against the Kiwis to be fair, but I'm sure you all know what I mean.

Developing halfbacks has clearly been a problem for decades. Goulding and Sean Long were the last class halfbacks to come out of england, and in Long's case he was far too variable to trouble the opposition regularly.

We seem to either develop running halfbacks who can't pass or, more rarely Deaccon/Smith types who pass and kick but can't run. I'd say with Smith at least could get better - he needs to run the ball far more, its that simple. He doesn't need to be lightning quick - too many people are obsessed with half backs having pace at the expense of skill (Johns wasn't quick, Lewis wasn't, latter-year Lockyer wasn't, Cronk never was).

Its about is making the defence unsure as to what you're going to do whilst having control yourself - Thurston makes even the best defence stand on their heels because he can run, kick or pass long or short near to the line, and they know it. If you know the halfback will pass its a hell of a lot easier to defend against.

Brown kicks just as much as Smith. Douglas Bader would have been as much use as Smith as a kicker (or runner) for 2.5 games. At least Brown gives you creativity, support, a try threat & unpredictability.

Douglas Bader retired from international RL in September.

Fair point.

As a youngster playing RL I was lucky enough to have plenty of outstanding players as inspiration in the likes of Gregory, Edwards, Hanley etc.

All we can do is hope the kids these days have access to Premier sports and see the likes of Thurston as something to aspire to, the same way that big lads look at the likes of Graham and Burgess as the type of forward they want to be like. As a kid my fave players that I wanted to play like were Nikau and Gavin Miller, so you have a point in regards to how young kids form their ideals in regards to playing.

Easy

Look down under and sign any past it, pension seeking, holidaying oceanic with a British "qualified passport" on a ridiculous contract and the problem is solved.

Ask the SL clubs they know it's the way forward, have been doing it in the past and will continue to do so.

Development?

That's the other teams problem!!

Smiths kicking game was hardly brilliant was it.

Englands problems stem from a lack clinical finishing to breaks made in the middle of the park, a lack of a ability to force repeat sets, and a lack of really threatening last tackle options.

These problems stem from not having two classically good half backs. We dont even have 1.

That really is the difference, we dont have even 1 difference maker in the halves. Our pack can compete, for the first time in a long time our backs can compete AND we have a fair bit of depth there, we have two hookers who have proven they can compete. Our halves just can't.

Widdop is a good NRL level half. He probably isnt an NRL or international level half. We could probably get away with it if we were playing Thurston next to him

Smith isnt close. We dont really have anyone else who is close at home. Perhaps Brown or Burrow or anyone else you want to argue should have been there instead, would have won the game, but thats only because the games were so tight and yeah maybe they would make a break, maybe they would have got on the end of something but that is only because they are different, not better. They arent the answer for us either.

Eastmond is a heartbreaker, he really could have been 'the one' He and Tomkins should have been grabbed at a very young age and moulded in to half-backs. Tomkins has some stuff missing from his game at Half but its nothing that shouldnt have been both apparent and fixable at a young age. Eastmonds problems were always 'growing pains'

Whether its the style of play in SL or it is something more endemic at youth level, we really arent producing half backs for international RL in either style or sufficient quality.

Agree with this. At junior level (in general) basic half back skills like decision making, basic kicking, accurate passing etc simply aren't taught.

Then another major problem is the jump from u21's/u19's to SL. The Aussie halves (and most other players) spend at least a year, often more, playing for their parent club's feeder club in the Queensland or NSW Cup. Our promising youngsters generally don't get that opportunity to play and learn the game against men. I think it's a massive, probably the biggest, advantage the Aussies have over us. I'd agree that u19's is too low an age range but even if it were u21's or u23's it really wouldnt make that much difference. We need our promising youngsters to play RL versus men at a decent standard but not with the pressure of the very top level.

Another issue is our impatience/lack of stability at international level. Over the last 10 years (50 games) England/GB have had 21 different half back combinations. Only 9 of which played more than 1 game together. Our longest halfback combination in the last 10 years has been Sinfield & Chase. But even then that was only 11 games. I think most people would be suprised if their club bought 2 new halfbacks and they were working perfectly together after only 11 games. And that's with all the time & training & pre-season etc that you get at a club.
By comparison the Aussies had Lockyer & Thurston who played together a total of 36 times. And that's from a competition where clubs and halves generally play a more similar game to each other than in SL.

We have problems at every level of the game. We need monumentally better junior coaching, a far, far better relationship between SL & the Championship and much, much more patience at international level & preferably some kind of domestic representative series where players can learn representative rugby without the pressure of facing Australia & NZ.

The dual reg system wont help with HB development because generally Championship Club coaches dont want the disruption of their pivot players being taken off them at short notice

Half backs should be on season long loans, and if SL clubs did that then more would get the experience they need, Jamie Ellis and Ryan Brierly are 2 cases in point

They arent going to learn doing a lot of those things by playing against others who arent near their level.

The best need to be playing against the best.

The problem isnt that the best youngsters are being funnelled to certain clubs, its that those certain clubs arent being funnelled towards each other.

Its only in fire that something can be forged, and a half back needs to practise these skills against the best opposition