But surely Sadler and Lockwood must know all the flatcaps like me who've never ventured past the end of their streets except to buy League Express and League Weekly, especially those who support clubs like HKR, Fartown, Cas, Wakey and Salford (about 30,000 potential or current buyers of these rags) aren't in favour of "hearing" their clubs are probably the ones to be relegated for this Transatlantic dream? The Hull Daily Mail poll confirmed 80% of fans don't want it

I don’t want to do a thesis on Leigh born players or administration boundaries just to combat ignorance. Suffice to say the great Martyn Ridyard, is a “Leigh Lad”, but only two miles away are the younger Adamson Brothers not erm, actually from Leigh, but quality players nonetheless. Leigh is part of the RL hotbed of Wigan Borough. Ironically TWP’s Higson is a Leigh lad.

The SBW signing came after McDermott confirmed TWP would not be doing any player development (and now apparently not much recruitment). This expensive “news management” was called out by Schofield on Monday with his view that a 34 year old with creaking bones who didn’t go great in the RU world cup is unlikely to do much surrounded by journeymen team mates. Schoey may end up being booted out of League express/totalrl along with you!!

I post this to agree on your analysis that essentially TWP appear to have given up, masking that with the SWB signing that covers reality. Equally look where Perez is now? Not at Ottawa where there’s apparently a mountain of work to do to prepare them for joining the game here, but lounging in a chair at Odsal in a thick winter jumper playing at Bulls CEO. This is in League Weekly where his assertions Ottawa are the next big RL thing go unchallenged, but supported in Lockwood's editorial.

It looks like the dream is turning to nightmare since McManus publicly announced SL didn't want TWP, but Lockwood is still spouting love for Canada in Weekly, whilst Sadler's Express is certainly of no mind to ever look beyond the "fantastic headlines" "Bob Hunter feeds them? I don't get it?

So. To recap.
Jean and Steph question the viability of Wakefield and Leigh by comparison with Toronto and other (to date) Imaginary expansion areas, are in receipt of posts showing that Leigh and Wakefield are both better production lines as well as being vastly more fiscally viable than Toronto, whilst, London, a true bastion of development and expansion have a side with 70% home-grown talent.
Suddenly Jean and Steph vanish from this thread? Coincidence, or just another example of the troll collective unable to debate real RL issues without throwing insults designed to wind up fans of traditional clubs.

Donnyman. The RL press (sic) has been an irrelevance for over a decade now, in the same way, that traditional media such as papers and TV news have diminished in relevance. I get most of my RL info (and other news) from the web. My Twitter feed rarely beats websites like NRL.COM or Rugby-league to the punch and this board is as quick to get breaking news as total fascist RL, except John Drake is now going to try and charge for breaking news on-line. He's like a poor man's version of Murdoch. SBW, probably the biggest RL story of the off-season to date, was common knowledge in both Union ad League circles for ages before the story broke. The NRL drugs story with the recently retired KIWI RL STAR supposedly funding the enterprise has been dragged out for months. Rugby League Journalists are generally penning articles that they hope will encourage debate and discussion amongst sports fans, but their constant fawning over the likes of Bibey and Perez is more damaging to the sport than it is interesting. Neither has demonstrated anything other than an admirable passion for the sport. NYC claims to be wanting to develop players, but are being linked with every retiree in the NRL.....which is it? Ottowa is also we are told about developing the game but from where...Bradford? Does either side have a physical postal address in NYC/Ottowa or are they based in Bradford/Huddersfield?

Back to Toronto, where SBW will be expected to single-handedly drag Toronto off the foot of the table. As London showed last year, a promoted side can hold their own at the bottom half of SL, but I suspect that if Toronto are in the mix for relegation (as I believe they will be) come August, Argyle will have no qualms about buying them out of trouble and the RL press will write that it's OK, because Melbourne did it......this is the same Melbourne that hasn't a single victorian player in their 2020 squad some 20 years after they started........instant gratification isn't sustainable in terms of RL expansion.

There is nothing to discuss. You believe a team that plays out of a stadium that resembles a high rise council estate and was granted a super league license when their ground didn’t meet the criteria, who also pulls an average attendance of about 4K yet has been in existence for 100 years deserves a super league place over a team in existence for 3 years who have nearly 3 times the fans and also have a corporate presence only Wakefield could dream of lol

The attraction of RLfans.com is that only a couple of posters if that

, keep trying to tell people that there is an explosion of RL across Europe and North America such that the failing M62 will be blown away by it. The saying goes you couldn't make it up, but Jean and Steph do but they back off when presented with the facts - fair enough? However the equivalent Total RL.com site appears to carry many members with the same viewpoint as Jean and Steph, but they don't back off anyone doubting the inevitability of North America being the future, and the M62 the past? Somehow the moderators on that site are happy for such doubters (I suggest like you) to be (in print) destroyed and ultimately banned which I think you were? Why if I may ask?

Did you mean "Wilby" and not Bibey when you referred to Perez? Yes I agree these people are allowed to spout all sorts without a single challenge but I would be sympathetic to RL Journos who report what others say leaving it as that, especially if the "news" sounds good for the game. However I agree with you it's not good news that London's progress was stymied by Toronto's purchase of a promotion by massively outspending the other clubs. I do remember when Perez first spoke, and he spoke about player development and TV deals. Is there a freelance RL journo prepared to challenge the failure to do either? and a open minded publisher prepared to print that? If not never mind, McManus who called TWP out as a anglo/Aussie side owned by an Aussie, and Lenegan who subbed London's losses on relegation will in time put things right.

Because Gutterfax was a trolling troublemaker who ruined good discussions, just like he does on here.

Ooooh a "soundbite"!...if only I had seen that coming
...er, hang on. I did


But I'll humour you

1. Wakefield averaged just under 5,500 last year.
2. Toronto averaged 6,084 over 13 "home games" in 2019. Not only is that not 3 times 5,500, neither is it 3 times your off the cuff and inaccurate 4k
3. Toronto are on record as saying they give away thousands of tickets, which is something that Wakefield do not
4. Belle Vue is a truly awful stadium, that Wakefield trinity own and are in the process of the first stages of redevelopment.
5. Lamport is a municipal stadium, rented by Toronto Wolfpack and one that would fail the now defunct SL minimum standards at every point at which BV would.
6. No fiscal figure has even been released in terms of the corporate income of Toronto, so you are adding guesswork to falsified attendance figures.

...so, to recap. You came out with false figures whilst arguing the one point that I said you would and have claimed that Toronto have a corporate presence.......one which means that they have no local TV deal, no announced 2020 playing shirt or playing sponsor and have signed a 34yr old average Rugby Player at the twilight of his career in the hope of selling an extra 1,000 season tickets, just to wind up fans of Traditional Heartland Clubs.

Must try harder Stephanie. I know trolls care not for winning or losing debates, but you're drowning in your own effluent now and it's sad to watch

There hasn't been a decent discussion on that toilet of a site in ages.
As for decent discussions on here. I asked you and Stephanie in this tread why a rich mans toy, with no TV deal, no development program and nothing other than 2k paying fans at best was better than Wakefield or Leigh? Instead of answering, you again attack me.....whilst Stephanie answered in exactly the way I predicted.
You used to represent a challenge, but of late, you both(sic) have been lazy and resorted to insults....Total RL are welcome to Manfred Mann.....

Back on Thread.

[url=http://www.stadium-maps.com/sports-maps/rugby-league-map.htmlHERE[/url is a map of the 2020 Superleague Home Grounds in the United Kingdom.
[url=http://www.stadium-maps.com/sports-maps/english-premier-league.htmlTOP FLIGHT FOOTBALL[/url as well as [url=http://www.stadium-maps.com/sports-maps/rugby-premiership.htmlTOP FLIGHT RUGBY UNION[/url have a far bigger geographical reach tha us, yet for some unfathomable reason, some folk believe that replacing Wakefield with Toronto is a step forward. The reality is, it's a disaster waiting to happen on many fronts.

1. The UK TV partner and biggest investor in the sport doesn't give a flying one for Toronto or Catalans. Neither teams sell subscriptions or deliver increased ad revenue and neither (as I type) have a domestic TV deal of their own.
2. Remove Wakefield and you remove the pathway for kids. Any Kid can learn a trade and then travel to use it, but there's no way Toronto et al will gamble on development when they can just pay more for players already "battle hardened".
3. The American Sports model is based on College players stepping up. There is no pathway for NA kids to step up as there's no RL in colleges there.
4. David Argyle needs to stay healthy and interested....otherwise it's over. That is not a good business model!

....again, as Stephanie kindly proved, the only come back on this is the stock answer that Toronto get fans to games in big numbers, but that really isn't benefiting the sport...it's just moving players to a different venue for their home games......it's a pointless exercise. If you doubt me, look at London from SLI until their demise in 2014.....very little done in the way of structured development, but a series of grounds and false dawns with a team of mercenaries.....now look at them. 70% local and with a better chance of survival when Hughes leaves than at any stage in the last 20 years.....it's not glitzy, there's little glamour, but there's a community feel and it's slowly paying dividends.

Well both he and you have been very civil towards me, I'm happy for anyone to discuss what "could be if only" for Rugby League, or conversely what is the "best for" Rugby League as it stands. In over 50 years of following the game it was always exciting when a new club in a new area was formed, the first one I came across (Notwithstanding Doncaster and Blackpool had been new clubs before them) was Huyton, who were Liverpool moving to a new place, after that it was Fulham in London and then an explosion of clubs around the north - Sheffield, Mansfield, Nottingham, Scarborough, and Trafford. At the time I thought the advantage of these clubs were that they were next door to the Heartlands of Rugby League and they would be accessible for players to go play at and fans to get to following their traditional teams against the new exciting clubs. I felt that this would lead to the new clubs growing investment and participation.

But in every single case it simply didn't happen Jean, other sports like soccer and Union were entrenched in those areas. and the local businessmen invested in them and local people played them and didn't want or need league. I have first hand knowledge and experience of "expansion" and it doesn't work mate, Rugby league only works where there is a tradition of it and that includes your clubs in Perpignan and Toulouse. In North America their own sports are entrenched too, INCLUDING Rugby Union (that has been around many years in Canada it started in 1865 and in the USA it dates back to 1874) anyone thinking RL will grow there must go to the MLR site and note that it's Rugby Union that is growing apace in terms of investment and participation.

At times Perez delights me with his enthusiasm for the game, I hope he stays at Odsal and leads the Bulls back to Superleague, but when he is talking rubbish about TWP, Ottawa and New York it really annoys me as I'm getting too old (and maybe too wise) to swallow all this garbage he talks. North Americans don't need or want Rugby League.

It is important to note that the advantages TWP were going to bring here were twofold as stated by Perez in July 2016, those were an NATV deal and NA players. So far the achievements are zero and zero. "Crowds" in any shape or form were never mentioned by Perez. In fact the removal of clubs here for NA clubs would depress crowds as TWP would not bring fans here. You watch the western terrace at Headingley when the useless Cas Fartown Bradford and Wakefield turn up against the same terrace when Crusaders, London, Catalans and Toulouse turned up.

I've noted so many arguments that "away" fans don't matter and should not count, I have been so convinced of this that I have now started to turn away potential customers for my own business who could not show me proof they live in my postcode area. Just the other week I stopped off at a Tesco in Castleford and was turned away at the door when I could not prove a Castleford address.

In true Kevin Keegan style, I absolutely love this.
Having said that, relying on away fans wont save any club. Although it a true twist of irony, it's worth noting that Catalan, Toulouse and Toronto do somewhat better on this front.
Not only enjoying the numbers of visiting fans but, also giving a boost to their local economies and most fans will stay for a few days and spend their hard earned cash whilst staying there.
A mere drop in the ocean for a city like Toronto but, decent income for both Perpignan and Toulouse.

I don't discriminate between fans? Customers are customers wherever they come from that's my point. let me try it this way....2022 10 club Superleague.....

(a) Hull.v.HKR, Castleford.v.Wakefield, Leeds.v.Wigan Wire.v.Saints and Fartown.v.Salford what? 58,000 customers...or

(b) Hull.v.TWP, Wigan.v.New York, Leeds.v.Ottawa, Wire.v.Boston. Saints v.Montreal what? 48,000 customers

Forget putting fans in boxes which business model do we go for 2022 English or Transatlantic?? You choose....

I never cast aspersions Donnyman, but I a am still unsure of your credentials..... Theres a tad of the unsure about you..... You're like the alterego that was missing from the russian doll set

You are the suspicious one, aren't you?

QED!

The names Drake, John Drake.

While i get your point it's a little simplistic. What about TV veiwers and the wider global apeal to broadcasters

Following on from my assertion we need to maximise crowds and not be prejudice against "away" supporters, it also occurred to me (eventually) that if we plump for a Transatlantic league and not an English league 2022 then another issue is not just "no away fans"

Hull Daily Mail asked fans in Hull what they thought of the North American dream and 20% were fine with it and 80% were not happy with it. Let's work on 18,000 RL fans attending matches in Hull on a regular basis. If HKR were made to stand down for Ottawa, how many HKR fans would walk away from the game? Do Hudgell and Crossland walk with them? Do any HKR fans bother any more? If so how many? I suggest maybe the vast majority as when Rovers were at their lowest ebb 1,000 crowds were reached.

But that was at a time the club had hope and ambition, to be rejected for good for a Transatlantic League may see crowds drop to the hundreds and eventually New Craven Park become Industriai units? But what do the 11,000 Hull fans do? Do they rejoice at the demise of their hated rivals? Or in times of adversity do Hull fans start to boycott the Transatlantic League in numbers? 80% of 11,000 Hull fans is quite a pressure group? We have already see solidarity with rivals when they wanted to do away with Fev and Cas and have one team called Calder. I don't think that the debate here is whether foreign clubs "boost their local economies" it's whether they will destroy the game here? Your view of crowds here under a five-five split Transatlantic league??

A wiser man than I once said

Good points for both kinds of league, but i think times have moved on. These days its all about profile and image and fans come a distant 3rd. For anyone loking to invest in a share of superleague, they will be looking at image. Would they rather be looking at featherstone, leigh, cas and salford, or new york, toronto, london and paris/tolouse/boston?

Like all successful things i think it will turn out to be a mix of tradition and progression

By the way have we even discussed the equity news yet?
[url=https://www.sportbusiness.com/news/super-league-close-to-private-investment/news here[/url

Quote ="AXE2GRIND" Speaking of their blinding success to date, I find it very strange there's been no mention of a 2020 sponsor and no sign of a 2020 playing shirt. This points to both continued troubles with suppliers and AirTransat's 3-year tenure as shirt sponsor for flights as having come to an end. They signed SBW and followed this up by extending some pretty average players contracts and all we've heard is that they expect to sell an extra 1,000 ST's on the back of SBW...it all sounds really sustainable, doesn't it? '" there's just this bit of info on their kit deal https://www.sportbusiness.com/news/toro ... gue-debut/

Quote ="AXE2GRIND" Speaking of their blinding success to date, I find it very strange there's been no mention of a 2020 sponsor and no sign of a 2020 playing shirt. This points to both continued troubles with suppliers and AirTransat's 3-year tenure as shirt sponsor for flights as having come to an end. They signed SBW and followed this up by extending some pretty average players contracts and all we've heard is that they expect to sell an extra 1,000 ST's on the back of SBW...it all sounds really sustainable, doesn't it? '" there's just this bit of info on their kit deal https://www.sportbusiness.com/news/toro ... gue-debut/

Quote ="the artist"Good points for both kinds of league, but i think times have moved on. These days its all about profile and image and fans come a distant 3rd. For anyone loking to invest in a share of superleague, they will be looking at image. Would they rather be looking at featherstone, leigh, cas and salford, or new york, toronto, london and paris/tolouse/boston? Like all successful things i think it will turn out to be a mix of tradition and progression By the way have we even discussed the equity news yet? [url=https://www.sportbusiness.com/news/super-league-close-to-private-investment/news here[/url'" Interesting. It will be key that the TV rights are up-sold for this to generate a ROI for this investor and it would seem that an announcement is imminent. Quote ="the artist"there's just this bit of info on their kit deal https://www.sportbusiness.com/news/toro ... gue-debut/'" BLK may well ask for money up front if stories from other suppliers are to be believed, but it's good that they have a supplier in place, if not a shirt or an announced sponsor.

Quote ="the artist"Good points for both kinds of league, but i think times have moved on. These days its all about profile and image and fans come a distant 3rd. For anyone loking to invest in a share of superleague, they will be looking at image. Would they rather be looking at featherstone, leigh, cas and salford, or new york, toronto, london and paris/tolouse/boston? Like all successful things i think it will turn out to be a mix of tradition and progression By the way have we even discussed the equity news yet? [url=https://www.sportbusiness.com/news/super-league-close-to-private-investment/news here[/url'" Interesting. It will be key that the TV rights are up-sold for this to generate a ROI for this investor and it would seem that an announcement is imminent. Quote ="the artist"there's just this bit of info on their kit deal https://www.sportbusiness.com/news/toro ... gue-debut/'" BLK may well ask for money up front if stories from other suppliers are to be believed, but it's good that they have a supplier in place, if not a shirt or an announced sponsor.

"Private equity" or investment into a private commercial operation, looks to make ambitious but well considered changes to said operation to make it more profitable and thus get a return on the investment that may outweigh simply buying shares in public companies. Wiki puts this in a dozen paragraphs where a sentence will do.

Yes the Private Equity money is flowing into British and Irish Rugby Union, and it may be their plan is to form a major season long league (such as one) that does away with the parochial "midlands and south" English league and pits Cardiff, and Swansea, Dublin, Edingburgh and Glasgow against the giants of English Rugby Union, a league that they project may attract more sponsors, wealthier owners, bigger paying crowds and much better TV deals. The Private Equity guys are then given a return on their investment, the principle is it is NOT charity.

So how do we restructure to increase revenues ? Superleague started to lose it's parochialness but in a very poor way, dumping Widnes for Catalans 2006 hardly achieved any return at club level, BUT the main aim was France/GB internationals before big crowds and on TV. That bombed. Then the idea was to ship playing squads from poor clubs here to the likes of Toronto whilst they developed new and exciting players, brought in TV deals and major sponsors - so how is that going - last I heard they were heading for a £10M loss??? These PE guys don't want a cut of those losses do they? They may find us some real growth but they want their cut and they certainly aren't miracle workers. BTW Boston don't exist even as a plan? These boys don't invest in dreams.

It appears to me the Private Equity guys are to negotiate the SKY TV deal working out what will deliver us the best (reduced) deal possible, the PE guys would then push us towards certain changes that maximises SKY's deal BUT going Transatlantic ain't going to do it is it? How many SKY subs do we sell there? Maybe they'll dump TWP and Les Cats and bring Bradford and Leigh back in? Maybe Perez's new "temping"job will become permanent

A different slant on the PE story https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/10574736 ... ot-happen/

A different slant on the PE story https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/10574736 ... ot-happen/

Quote ="Mr Dog"A different slant on the PE story https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/10574736 ... ot-happen/'" And there we go again, rugby League is full to the brim with all this cobblers about new dawns, expanding boundaries and massive investments. Let's just admit we are what we are, give SKY an all English League and carry on making the best of it as we largely have done since 1896. Sack off the johnny foreigners, bring back Leigh and Bradford, and make Perez permanent here where he can use his charms to a positive effect.....

Quote ="Mr Dog"A different slant on the PE story https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/10574736 ... ot-happen/'" And there we go again, rugby League is full to the brim with all this cobblers about new dawns, expanding boundaries and massive investments. Let's just admit we are what we are, give SKY an all English League and carry on making the best of it as we largely have done since 1896. Sack off the johnny foreigners, bring back Leigh and Bradford, and make Perez permanent here where he can use his charms to a positive effect.....