Indifference?


Most of us are pretty happy with how the sport is moving.....there a just a few compulsive moaners.

Thats because the games are cherry picked


You would find the attendances for the televised games were a lot less than they would have been if they had been played on Sunday.

The Thursday night tv exposure is nothing more than a sweetner.

P and R is right and thats that, the fact the most people who dont want it are all in the top tier says it all.

This has got nothing to do with being anti expansion, or luddite heartland emotions, this is about the sports history and dignity, lets see how some of you anti P and R gang feel in another few years.
The do do will hit the fan when some of todays SL clubs start getting locked out. Then people might realise nothing is sacred in SL, its all about money and marketting and less about Sport.

P&R is still here, and always has been.
The change, to what you are used to between the pro leagues (but no others) is that it is not solely dependant on the onfield results of a single year.
I'm far from top tier, about as far as possible BTW.

As to money, well yes, that's why it's called "professional"

The same Bill Fallowfield who also managed to drive the amateur game into virtual oblivion?

Are you aware of the background to why BARLA came into existence?

Yes!

My point was about something else, but you realise though that Bill Fallowfiedl got the amatuer game shown regularly on the box and even did the commentary.

There was a great opportunity then.

It was probably not understood but even now it isn't by most.

Two days away and a lot to catch up on. Well, I'll give it a go!...


Is that the same guy that was in charge when the amateur game split from the professional game? Yeah, he really looked after the game from top to bottom!

The post you have quoted of me was also me talking to maurice.
If you're referring to my other post, then can you explain which part of my viewpoint is blinkered? What's blinkered is the way you think the line of work you personally are in has anything to do with administration in rugby league at national level!


The amateur scene is better than it has ever been, with more funding than ever and more clubs in more places than ever.
The game has spread across Europe more than ever before thanks mainly to Richard Lewis and his role on the RLEF.

So when you say "everything else withers", what is it specifically you are referring to? Because it seems to me that everything is going just fine at the top and the bottom? Or are you one of these hypocrites that have a pop at people for thinking that SL is the "be all and end all" and then refer to the Championships as being "everything else" outside of SL, blatantly ignoring the amateur game?

What you really want to do is sod the amateur game and put that money into the semi-pro game. Isn't that how BARLA started?


You shouldn't always judge people on one past job. If you did, Sir Alex Ferguson wouldn't have had his legacy.

So the winners of the SL GF are not necessarily the Champions. Maybe just have the game as one of the criteria as to whether the actually go through to the next round. So if the likes of Wakey, Cas, Salford are in the play offs they actually have to win by 100 points to offset their failings off the pitch.

The whole of rugby league? Or just the Championships? Because I'm pretty sure there is a lot he is ignoring outside the pro game!


So we're changing the argument now because the last one wasn't working. OK. Well at least you've acknowledged that Lewis has made decisions that affect the pro game in order to vastly benefit the amateur game (to the sum of nearly £30m). So that kind of goes against your "he only looks after the top and sods the rest".

So let's take apart your new argument...
Super League is a European competition. Let's not forget this. It was not founded as an English competition, and the idea behind it was never for it to be an English competition, so you cannot complain that non-English teams are entering. Even so, there are more English clubs in SL now than there was when it was first founded in 1996. You forget that there are still 12 English clubs (the same as before Catalans entered in 2006). So when you talk about shrinkage, what exactly are you referring to? And there have always been overseas players, so don't blame Lewis for that. He's doing his best to get around the legal system so we have to produce more (something that is finally happening). It's not something that you can implement over night, and it's quite ignorant if you think it could be done.
So the whole "vastly reduces the number of English players available" argument is just something you've made up on the spot for the sake of being against him. Not that it matters, because more English players doesn't necessarily mean better selection possibilities. If there are less English players to select but they're playing in a stronger competition, then chances are they will be better positioned to play at a higher level for England. Of course, there needs to be a balance.

Oh, and a nice kicker at the end there as well. "Possible lower attendances". Catalans are doing pretty good for attendances, aren't they? Yeah, they've had less this year but only because they're having their ground redone (and they've been poor). Crusaders attendances have stood up well in their first year. The only reason their average is down so far is because of the two games at the Gnoll. Not to mention they have barely sold any season passes because of the move, so they don't have much of a core crowd yet. You wait until next season.
Unless of course you just mean they don't bring many away fans? Which is a pretty poor argument if they're bringing in considerably more home fans than the smaller English clubs.

Would they?
Are Saints solvent? Yes.
Do they turn over more than £4m a year? Yes.

Where in the criteria does it say they need to make a profit?

Oh wait, it doesn't. Hopefully that has cleared things up for you and you don't need to whinge about things being unfair in this regard now...

Salary cap infringements, ground?

Something which has always happened and will always happen at amateur level in not only this sport, but all sports at amateur level. These are the challenges that amateur sports clubs have and will always have. We can provide funding as much as we like, and create opportunities, but we can't force people to play all the time. Don't pretend it's something that Lewis has done, and don't pretend it is a RL only problem.


Of course they will. They help fund grass roots. The funding will go to professional clubs in some capacity so they can fund community coaches and development officers to work at grass roots level in their areas. These participants will then hopefully in turn become either RL players at a higher level (thus benefiting the performance of pro clubs) or RL fans (benefiting the income streams). But it will also hugely benefit the running of the game at grass roots.

I don't see what you are complaining about (again!).


And so does every sport at grass roots level. No sport will ever be perfect. As long as they're working towards improving the situation (which we clearly are) then it's a good thing. If you don't think RL is doing what it can with limited resources to improve at grass roots then you aren't paying much attention.

You lead the way then...

Which is a fair point. It's not exactly a good argument to say attendances on this day are bigger than on that day if the games are completely different.


You will find that hard to prove. I think they are very similar compared to other seasons similar fixtures played on different days. But you made the point, so you can prove me wrong if you like.


Which if you didn't have, you'd be complaining that you didn't have it (like you did before you had it). Why they feel the need to sweeten those that will complain either way I haven't the foggiest!


So why aren't you starting a thread to get P&R between Championship 1 and the Conference as well? It shouldn't matter if clubs in the Conference don't want to come up or not. The fact is, it is only right that they do even if they're not ready.


Again, this history and dignity thing isn't an argument. It's a filler that people use who lack an argument. The history of the game has seen promotion via criteria throughout. It's nothing new. The game has always had teams being knocked back or kicked out and teams being denied, not only at the top level but at the 2nd and 3rd tiers as well. I don't see you campaigning for them.


No surprise that PROFESSIONAL sport is about making money! If it wasn't about making money, then how would they work as a business? How would the sport work without money? You tell us, because you're the one complaining about it.

What on earth did that have to do with my post, that you quoted?

These were not mentioned in leaguefan's whinge about fairness being applied. I would assume that Saints didn't get a point for salary cap infringements and having a premier ground. But they have the capacity. They have the crowds. They have contributed to the competition probably more than any other club in the SL. They produce the players (many making up the England team). I don't see how it is unfair that a club that rightfully earned a B License is in Super League?

Can someone explain for me?

I have no idea what you're on about...

I'll go and read it again and let you know

I simply thought you were implying that the best club eg the one deserving of promotion wasn't necessarily the best on the field, which is what the majority of sports in this country use for promotion to a higher level. Therefore I was suggesting that you apply that to the SL play offs, ie its not the best on field performing team in the league that is crowned the best team in the country...sorry Europe.

If you haven't worked it out I am strongly against the licensing system as the ridiculousness of the idea i posted shows. Rugby League is moving away from being a sport and business to just a business, the sport and competition is secondary. Even in SL fans are getting fed up with only the successful clubs of Wigan and Wire along with the Crusaders posting significant crowd increases. Two thirds of the clubs in SL are losing fans.

Stop right there.
They don't. RL doesn't. Soccer only does so between four of it's hundreds of leagues (and there has minimum standards too) RU doesn't.
Which other sports do you have an in depth knowledge of.

Could anyone name the last winner of the Minor Counties Championship to be promoted to the County Championship in cricket? Or the last team to finish bottom of the County Championship to be relegated to the Minor Counties Championship.

Ah, I see. So you're trying to compare entry from one competition to another with competing in one competition (two completely different things) and trying to pass them off as somehow similar in this argument? OK. Well, let me be the first to say that that doesn't make sense and is a shocking argument!

There is no divine right to move to a higher level if you succeed in a certain competition. For those that seem to think that this HAS to be the case then they need to do their research.

As for your comment about crowds, it's no surprise that the teams that are doing worse this year will get lower crowds, and the teams that are doing better will get higher crowds. That's the fickle nature of sport. Wigan, Warrington, Hull FC and Crusaders are the only teams that have performed better this year than last year, and coincidentally they are also the only teams to have improved their crowds. Two teams have stayed in the same position (Saints and Salford) and have similar crowds to last year. Saints still have a home game to go which will see their crowd average beat last year's. Everyone else has dropped slightly because they're playing worse. It's not rocket science.

Eh? Soccer has a pyramid of promotion and relegation involving about 7000 clubs, *hundreds* of leagues and more than 20 layers.

Likewise, all RU clubs competing in the league system are part of a pyramid of relegation and promotion, ranging from (say) Yorkshire division 5 all the way up to the top league. This season, Exeter have been promoted to the top flight, having worked their way up from division 4 over the last 15 years.

Aren't there minimum standards which need to be met before entry in the Football League, union Premiership? Just a couple of years back, Frickley were deemed unable to gain promotion, should they finish in a place, due to off-field issued, and that was to get into the Conference!

Not just Rugby League then, but ice hockey, cricket, rugby union....probably Netball Super League!

Not liable to either , you either have to already be in it , in which case you don't have to comply to anything or you have to have the correct postcode

Are you suggesting that location is not an issue for a championship clubs potential to enter SL ?