Perhaps you need to go back to the inception of "Super League" for your answer.
The all new SuperDooperLeague brought in 25 years ago, due to RL being all but bankrupt in the UK.

Uncle Mo brokered a deal and forced the switch to summer rugby and in turn the sport got a heap of cash from Sky.
The original league, to try and distinguish it from the old first division was "sold" as spreading the game and included London, Paris, Sheffield and Workington and the game was "sold" on showing an "expanded" version of RL and with the demise of Paris, a replacement French club was sought.
When you look at the 12 original clubs and see that only 5 of them are currently in SL and that neither of the Hull sides were included, it seems crazy but, that's RL for you.
To make room for Catalan coming in to the League and a return to the "Eurpoean" concept, there were two clubs relegated but, this was known in advance and while there is no doubt that this was harsh on Widnes, it was certainly no worse than the clubs getting "culled" from the old first division in the season prior to SL.

Widnes were not "thrown out" but, relegated for finishing in the bottom two.
Were Cas also relegated from 11th due to Catalans "protection" ?

Paris collapsed in 1997, many years before Catalans were introduced into Superleague, I don't deny that the game at that time tried to geographically expand to try to get more people investing, playing, developing and watching. But it didn't work did it, and we find (sadly) that you can't "expand" anything unless you make the money to re-invest in the game. Same applies to all businesses.

Catalans were brought in to underpin GB/France tests that is 100% correct, I was there when Lewis spoke of it and there at the first test at Headingley.

Not for one second did the RFL invite Les Catalans into Superleague to replace Paris. They had been saying "NO" to Toulouse for 8 years after Paris collapsed, and a lot of people were behind Toulouse. If what you say is true then it would have been Toulouse into Superleague 1998.

You need to remember we BOTH go back a very long way

So, You are suggesting that the sole reason for Catalan coming into SL was to underpin the England v France fixtures and not in anyway to give credence to SL being more than just the old First division.
Paris was a very poor concept and there WAS a desire to find a replacement for them.

Catalan "formed" in 2000, only a couple of years after Paris collapsed and they were deemed stronger than Toulouse, hence them getting the nod.

For me, SL is better for having Catalan in the comp, something that I realise you dont agree with (and never will).

Your opinion and your are indeed fully entitled to it, just as I am mine.

Your "opinion" isn't based on reality. You can't just accept you got this wrong. Paris was chosen as a capital city and they played London who erm are also a capitol city and Maurice Lyndsay spoke of Milan another big city and Barcelona who were a regional capital. Not my opinion at all, this is from David Lawrenson's article on Superleague from the book Seasons in the Sun. Lawrenson makes no reference to Perpignan. Toulouse pushed to replace the defunct Paris as Toulouse applied 1996 and were blocked out by Paris. The replacement was there - the fact is Superleague didn't want them. There was no desire to find a French replacement - you made that up - I looked it up.......

You also know full well Superleague clubs are required to develop juniors into pro-players and underpin a TV deal. The English clubs do this , the North American clubs can't do this and and French clubs have no desire - Catalans who follow the policy of shipping in overseas players do not, and Toulouse are set to follow that.

Not my opinion at all

what I reflect is Elstone's analysis that North America bring nothing to Superleague, and nor do Catalans, or even Toulouse if they eject their French players for Aussies, kiwis and south sea islanders.

I can accept you like the romantic idea personally of a "French" SL club but it's worth recording on here that even the arch expansionist Martyn Sadler just doesn't see it anymore. Not when there's no interest in promoting French players which killed the GB.v.France games....You made up the bit in bold.

Well it's a very interesting question and you may think it a very fair answer if I say I don't know a lot about Australian Rugby league. But I would say that [uMelbourne Storm obviously underpin the massive NRL TV deal[/u there is no such deal in France

I would also say that London develop few players despite a 40 year existence yet they are seen as important in terms of being in Superleague. I am not sure about this.

But if Martyn Sadler sees no point to Catalans if they refuse to develop French juniors into professionals (and can't get a France TV deal) there is a better argument for removing them from SL than these is for removing Melbourne from the NRL.It may not be a case that Melbourne develop few Victorian professionals, more that Catalans simply refuse to even try to develop any at all?

Bottom line as proposed by Martyn Sadler is Mr, Gausch can choose to ensure his money is spent on finding the best team from anywhere so his club can win things and get to finals, or he can engage in some real French development. This begs the question maybe English SL clubs should follow suit and shut their academies?

And the answer to that may come with the new 2022 deal.

Are you suggesting that SKY are concerned about how many players each club produces ?? Really ??
Sky are bothered about having something to broadcast, selling subscriptions and most importantly, selling advertising.

Do you think that they are in the least bit concerned about junior or academy development ?

To steal one of your favourite phrases, you made that up.

SL can insist that clubs produce X number of players as part of the "membership" of the league but, not Sky.

As far as "shipping in overseas players", have they (Catalan) broken any rules here ?

I think you got the first point muddled up. It's the Supereague clubs that are primarily keen clubs have a full player development system, this however involves SKY who provide money for the foundations that promote Rugby league in Superleague club areas. After that it's the clubs who agreed development then needed SL clubs to have academies, and then they started to sort out reserves as well

Before COVID It was going this way:-

1. Foundations paid for by SKY to promote Rugby League and encourage junior clubs - linked to charitable works
2. Best kids go into academies for professional development
3. Best players gravitate to first team squad
4. Possible late developers go into the reserves

Bernard Gausch doesn't really bother with any of this this and his poilicy is concentrate on finding the very best players Catalans can find even if that leaves no French players in the side, and just try to win trophies. As a result of that it was Martyn Sadler that made a scathing criticism of the club reflecting the criticisms that English Superleague sides have of the club as well. Gausch rarely ever attends SL meetings even though SL bosses demanded he did to explain why so much money was thrown at Folau (again rather than developing French players).

To answer your question I don't think Les Catalans are breaking the rules, BUT nor do I think that if the Superleague chairmen who are generally fed up to the back teeth with them would be breaking any rules excluding them in 2022. As for SKY they don't want overseas clubs full stop, but as McManus said they will concede a couple if that means expanding the game with more players and more TV money.

Finally (and thanks for the debate) it has always been the case that the "expansion of the game" involves clubs who develop more quality players to expand the playing pool and develop more paying TV deals to pay these players . Proof positive came from Eric Perez who said he would do this with TWP. Obviously TWP did neither and were booted out. Thing is Gausch does "Neither either"

All questions, no answers.

What DO Catalans bring to the tournament? Make the case considering;

They don't produce players.
When they reached a major final, ticket sales were the worst ever.
The profile of the comp has declined since their involvement.
France RL are if anything worse, and do not bring any interest to the value of international RL.

I could go on and Donny has (at great length).

You think Catalans are good for SL. Please tell us. What are the positives?

Just for clarity on this.
Lets assume that Catalan (or any other overseas club) ran a reserve and academy side.
When and where do you propose that they play their fixtures, remembering that these fixtures dont usually fall all that conveniently ie on the same day as the first team - reserve games certainly dont and would the English clubs be happy to send their reserve and academy sides to France, when some of those players may get drafted into the first team squad at short notice ?
I have posed this question to you previously but, I dont think that you came up with an answer.?

Isn’t St Esteve, Catalans reserve team?

Only saints, Wigan and Leeds produce SL quality players. The rest shove a number 23 squad number on a random local amateur player to keep costs down.

Look at F Estebanez, more suited to RL, if B Guasch spent big on development of local talent 99% of the best will be bought by RU clubs, and with all the travelling involved, I don't see the point of having Catalonia in SL. Just have British teams. Have a good semi-professional French league, and lets see what new laws RU come up with over the next 2 years. Wayne Pivac said yesterday he's expecting quite significant changes, meaning the sport will go closer to RL. Who knows, maybe a few wealthy French guys will just adopt RL laws, or very similar ones, as they say, never say never.

Yes. I have mentioned this before on this thread I think. Might have been the other one.

Makes me laugh when people accuse Catalans of not producing players when half of SL and vast majority of lower leagues don’t. Some don’t even have academies? Catalans may not be perfect but they are damn sight better than some.

Someone accused Toronto of not producing players. How can you expect to produce Championship/SL standard players in 4 years in a country that’s hardly ever played League and doesn’t have a decent amateur game? Stupid point. I do concede that they should have done more with the camps and players such as Quinn Ngawati, Joe Eichner, Rhys Jacks, Monti Gaddis etc though.

France as a county are going to be nowhere near the levels of England/GB in terms of talent. Our player pool is so much bigger, more hotbeds of RL, better amateur system, RL didn’t get banned over here whereas in France it was illegal for a time. That beds into culture and a whole generation or two will have played something else which filters down to their kids etc. If RL was banned in this country for a length of time we might only ever see an amateur game again if it did come back.

If there was a rule stating that at least 6-7 of the match day 17 had to be home grown. Catalans would probably still get playoffs or at least compete. A number of other clubs wouldn’t. I’ll let you decide which ones.

No.

It's not really......It's a way of pretending Catalans have a development system.

Let's just think about this. Junior French RL is still played around the south of France. 30,000 people are supposedly registered as RL players, so there is a significant game there. After a few years once Les Catalans got established in Superleague they put together an Academy side and [uLes Catalans academy used to be a good side that could easily hold it's own.[/u

Currently there are no "Reserve teams" so NO St.Esteve are not a reserve team, they are a club in their own right. I don't think if all SL clubs had to have reserve teams that they would get away with such ideas that Milford were actually Leeds "A" or Lock Lane were in fact "Castleford "A"........

If St Esteve were their reserve team then can any of us make a list of St. Esteve juniors that have gravitated to a first team Catalans jersey??? The thing is I can name you (and already have) an almost full strength Les Catalans side that would contain no French players at all.

It's glaringly obvious that Les Catalans have no player development systems at all and their owner simply buys in the best English and antipodeans he can, some like Folau at an enormous cost that could easily have kept Catalans academy going.........

The lower leagues are not relevant to the debate at all. Professional Superleague clubs are supposed to run player development systems.

Catalans do not. They came into the game on the idea that they were the club that would develop French professionals to bring back the test matches, so why do you ignore that fact? They actually did set the systems up at one time and they worked....so they themselves conceded the requirement so why apologise for them now they have dumped it?

The only comparable club without much of a development system is Salford who struggle for money and risk their own inclusion in SL. Folau's wage would cover a return of the Catalans academy. Go figure.

Toulose are set to follow Les catalans, do you think it great that if they did this they would boot the French lads out of their team for Aussies? Perhaps have a chat with John Kear about the importance of junior development, your own club support it even if you somehow don't.....

Are you suggesting that RL in France simply "surrenders" to RU ??

Every club that develops any player, risks them moving away to another club or Union or "down under".

I actually agree with Donny that each club should be developing a certain number of players.
However, you cant prevent them from moving clubs, it's not possible and it doesn't matter if we're talking about Catalan, Wigan or Castleford.
Each club should contribute to the player pool.

I find your comments on Union both interesting and disturbing in equal measure as you could apply those comments to ALL RL clubs and not just to Catalan.
As a sport RL should be trying to grow and improve but, despite having had 70/80 years head start over Union as a professional sport, we look like our decisions are being made by a few blokes in a small room at the back of the Local Working men's club.

As for RL in France becoming a semi professional sport and allowing RU to once again shove League into an ever smaller corner of France, I just despair.

French RL is semi-professional. I read a couple of months ago that there's less money in French RL now than 20 yrs ago. Suppose that's due to the 2008 GFC, if it's true. England have a really good RL team who could win the WC, France don't, England has a full-time RL set-up across the clubs, France does not. It's therefore far less likely for the best English RL talent to go to Union, I don't care if they change RL clubs or go to the NRL, as long as they stay in RL.

Also France is still traumatised by WWII.

I think you are well wide of the mark. I see Catalans as a 'real' team with history, and a good sized loyal fanbase that attend because they love RL not due to unsustainable cheap or free tickets.

Yes the travel means they won't ever take the largest crowd to Wembley, but the issue with Cup final crowds is the decline in neutral crowds. No team in SL can sell 45k tickets each to sell the place out, most struggle to shift 20k, neutrals are key and they have lost interest over the last 10 years or so (multiple reasons, scheduling on a Bank Holiday with poor travel options, loss of social clubs, amateur teams and who all used to fill a coach, launch of the Magic Weekend as an alternative RL weekend away)

I would like to see more French players come through, but they have to remain competitive and that means established British or Anz players are often a better option.

I would agree the French National Team haven't progressed, but that seems to be due to a lack of competitive games and some odd coaching choices (several British coaches with no links to France and not fluent in the language) it is not Catalans responsibility to fix the National side.

Well, for starters.

Expanding the footprint of professional RL
Excellent facilities and decent crowds
Attracted the largest attendance for any regular SL game (outside of Magic Weekend).
Attracting some star signings - Folou, although loved and hated in equal measure is certainly a world class player
First no English club to win a major RL Trophy
Somewhere different to watch SL

I too could go on but, it would probably be wasting my breath

IF RL was brave enough, just imagine what magic would be like held in the Camp Nou.

I know that Bradford aren't in SL (yet) but, Barcelona would be a fantastic place to go for the weekend and watch a major rl event and it would do more for the sport than staging the event in Manchester but, RL lacks ambition.
Certainly if Toulouse were to get the "golden ticket", a "Magic" event in Catalonia or France would be superb -covid permitting, of course

I'm not sure that Catalan (or Toulouse) are semi pro ??
As for less money in the sport over there, I'll take your word for it but, the same could probably be said for RL in the UK too.
It certainly looks like there will be less cash swilling around after the next TV deal.
Your comment about French players being more likely to go to Union is crazy.
If there were no professional RL players in France, any player wanting to make a living in "rugby" would have to go to Union to make a living and you seem to be advocating this ??

"Traumatised by WW11" and yet it is you who wants to wave the white flag for them


Btw, that's a shocking comment and not relevant to this chat, in any way, shape or form. Quite appalling.

This. Its not like the other clubs are producing quality players. Very far from it.

How anyone can claim with a straight face the profile of the competition has got worse due to Catalan I have no idea? Does one seriously think replacing Catalan with some northern town is suddenly going to raise profile of SL lol?

The profile has gotten worse as the competition has got worse year on year. The best players leave the competition but that's nothing to do with Catalan.

Catalonia and Toulouse are in the British system, Catalonia are in the British SL, like the NZ Warriors are in the Aussie RL comp. European SL? Hahahahahaha, do me a favour.

Then either yes or no, players are developed through St Esteve to play for Catalans. I’m presuming that encourages community youth development. They may do it a different way but the outcome is still the same.

So, you take out the 2 professional clubs that compete in SL and The Championship and declare the rest as non professional


Why not go the whole hog and take out the English Clubs in those leagues and say that the game over here is the same.

The fact is that Catalan and Toulouse pay their players, hence, they are professional RL clubs in France.