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| Quote ="Starbug"So the RFL knew it was cack , but didn't tell Fax
Or it wasn't cack , or at least not as cack as has been made out
So why would Fax attempt to improve it
Fax have been used by the RFL to give some perverse crdibility to the licence process
In reality the RFL knew months before the announcement date exactly who was staying and who was going , but the whole process is such a crock of poop they couldn't back out of it'"
I don't believe that Halifax have been used and I believe that had they submitted a better application they would have had a better chance of success
You don't believe this and, to be honest, I think that is probably where we have to leave it
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| Quote ="Dunbar"I agree that a Championship club will always struggle to match a Super League club in the ‘factual’ elements of the application – attendances etc, but the feedback is that Halifax let themselves down in the commercial forecasting and budget element of the submission – there is no reason why Halifax would be at a disadvantage in this element as it the quality of the submission itself in question and not the supporting facts
As for your other point – if Halifax didn’t have the opportunity to improve their application after the first announcement then that’s my mistake'"
it sound like your advocating telling lies to make it look better.
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| Quote ="j.c"it sound like your advocating telling lies to make it look better.'"
Not at all – budgeting and commercial forecasting can be done well and it can be done badly (funnily enough, just like playing Rugby League) and it looks like whoever wrote this part of the Halifax submission did it badly
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| Quote ="Dunbar"I agree that a Championship club will always struggle to match a Super League club in the ‘factual’ elements of the application – attendances etc, but the feedback is that Halifax let themselves down in the commercial forecasting and budget element of the submission – there is no reason why Halifax would be at a disadvantage in this element as it the quality of the submission itself in question and not the supporting facts
As for your other point – if Halifax didn’t have the opportunity to improve their application after the first announcement then that’s my mistake'"
So you are suggesting that the cover is more important than the contents ?
How sad a sport are we when that is the case ?
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| Quote ="Starbug"So you are suggesting that the cover is more important than the contents ?
How sad a sport are we when that is the case ?'"
That’s a strange comment. Where did you get that from what I have written – it is the content of the submission that I am talking about not the cover
As for whether the licensing is the right way to decide the membership of Super League or not – well that is a debate for another time. What I do know is that I joined this forum to talk about the sport of Rugby League not commercial forecast and budgets as that is a bit too much like work!
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| Quote ="Dunbar"That’s a strange comment. Where did you get that from what I have written – it is the content of the submission that I am talking about not the cover
As for whether the licensing is the right way to decide the membership of Super League or not – well that is a debate for another time. [u What I do know is that I joined this forum to talk about the sport of Rugby League not commercial forecast and budgets[/u as that is a bit too much like work!'"
have you not noticed how quite this board can get when its SL being talked about and not the politics.
Business first ,sport second.
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| Quote ="Dunbar"=#FF0000That’s a strange comment. Where did you get that from what I have written – it is the content of the submission that I am talking about not the cover
As for whether the licensing is the right way to decide the membership of Super League or not – well that is a debate for another time. What I do know is that I joined this forum to talk about the sport of Rugby League not commercial forecast and budgets as that is a bit too much like work!'"
Maybe from this
Quote there is no reason why Halifax would be at a disadvantage in this element as it the =#FF0000quality of the submission itself in question and not the supporting facts'"
If you dont want to discuss the politics of the sport , dont comment on threads about the politics of the sport , how simple is that ?
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| Quote ="Starbug"Maybe from this
If you dont want to discuss the politics of the sport , dont comment on threads about the politics of the sport , how simple is that ?'"
You clearly don’t understand that two business proposals can contain the same foundation data and yet can have very obviously differing standards in financial forecasting and budgets. This is of course what I was referring to... not ‘the cover’
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| Quote ="Starbug"If you dont want to discuss the politics of the sport , dont comment on threads about the politics of the sport , how simple is that ?'"
I appreciate the advice but I have a real inability to see people spout utter rubbish and ignore it... I guess it’s just a weakness of mine
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| Quote ="Dunbar"I appreciate the advice but I have a real inability to see people spout utter rubbish and ignore it... I guess it’s just a weakness of mine'"
It seems you also have a weakness of believing everything people tell you , no matter how unlikely
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| Quote ="Dunbar"You clearly don’t understand that two business proposals can contain the same foundation data and yet can have very obviously differing standards in financial forecasting and budgets. This is of course what I was referring to... not ‘the cover’'"
I fully understand , but essentially it is the facts and foundation data that is the important bit , not the forecasting of what may or may not happen in the future , especially when the people charged with checking it have a history of getting it wrong already , as in the case of the Crusaders and Wakefield
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| Quote ="Starbug"I fully understand , but essentially it is the facts and foundation data that is the important bit , not the forecasting of what may or may not happen in the future , especially when the people charged with checking it have a history of getting it wrong already , as in the case of the Crusaders and Wakefield'"
So now you are saying that the budget and forecast included in a licence application for the next three years is not as important as the past. Can I remind you that the 2012-14 licence period is in the future
Anyway, it is this element of the Halifax submission that the RFL criticised and is at the root of our discussion so it doesn’t really matter if you think it is relevant if the RFL do – after all, it them who make the decision, not you
Now I categorically know that you do not have any experience in managing a commercial entity and you are simply making up your arguments as you go along
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| Quote ="Dunbar"So now you are saying that the budget and forecast included in a licence application for the next three years is not as important as the past. Can I remind you that the 2012-14 licence period is in the future
Anyway, it is this element of the Halifax submission that the RFL criticised and is at the root of our discussion so it doesn’t really matter if you think it is relevant if the RFL do – after all, it them who make the decision, not you
=#FF0000Now I categorically know that you do not have any experience in managing a commercial entity and you are simply making up your arguments as you go along'"
You do , do you ?
So having my own businesses for over 18 years with turnovers in total of over 40 million pounds doesn't give me an insight into business ? , let alone being a director of NL and SL clubs ?
Whats your CV look like ?
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| Quote ="Starbug"Whats your CV look like ?'"
I am an Executive Director of an IT Services company managing a Cost Centre with a budget of £60m in our current FY
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| Quote ="Dunbar"I am an Executive Director of an =#FF0000IT Services company managing a Cost Centre with a budget of £60m in our current FY'"
That tells a story , " The Office spring to mind "
And your involvment in pro RL is what ?
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| Quote ="Starbug"That tells a story , " The Office spring to mind " '"
You do realise that The Office was a sitcom based in the office of a paper retailer don’t you?
Quote ="Starbug"And your involvment in pro RL is what ?'"
What has that got to do with anything – you stated a few posts ago that this conversation was not about Rugby league but business and politics? You can't reverse that now when it works in your favour
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| Quote ="Dunbar"You do realise that The Office was a sitcom based in the office of a paper retailer don’t you?
What has that got to do with anything – you stated a few posts ago that this conversation was not about Rugby league but business and politics? You can't reverse that now when it works in your favour'"
I am not reffering to the on field part of the sport , as the licence system disregards that to a large degree
I have said many many times on these boards that there is no business experience in normal , mainstream business that can prepare you to run a pro sports club , I assume you have never had dealings with the RFL ? either
Are Chelsea a successful pro sports club ?
Are Chelsea a successful business ?
You can have the most successful sports club in the world and lose hundreds of millions a year , but you are still considered a success
Try that in business ?
What Fax submitted was the truth , from where they were starting from , and from what they reasonably expected to achieve , they told the truth , other clubs fill their applications with totally ourageous predictions based on business plans and forecasts , the RFL used KMPG last time , they passed these business plans , some of those business plans fell apart the day after the clubs were granted licences
So unless the RFL want to publish exactly what was in all these applications I wont believe a single word of their assessment , their history of assessing clubs properly is very , very poor
Are Quins a viable potential successful business in the next 3 years ? , Huddersfield maybe ? , HKR perhaps ? , Wakefield ? , Salford ?
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| Quote ="Starbug"I am not reffering to the on field part of the sport , as the licence system disregards that to a large degree
I have said many many times on these boards that there is no business experience in normal , mainstream business that can prepare you to run a pro sports club , I assume you have never had dealings with the RFL ? either
Are Chelsea a successful pro sports club ?
Are Chelsea a successful business ?
You can have the most successful sports club in the world and lose hundreds of millions a year , but you are still considered a success
Try that in business ?
What Fax submitted was the truth , from where they were starting from , and from what they reasonably expected to achieve , they told the truth , other clubs fill their applications with totally ourageous predictions based on business plans and forecasts , the RFL used KMPG last time , they passed these business plans , some of those business plans fell apart the day after the clubs were granted licences
So unless the RFL want to publish exactly what was in all these applications I wont believe a single word of their assessment , their history of assessing clubs properly is very , very poor
Are Quins a viable potential successful business in the next 3 years ? , Huddersfield maybe ? , HKR perhaps ? , Wakefield ? , Salford ?'"
That is a very convincing argument – and I very much agree with you
Without reading all of the submissions in detail, we don’t know what predictions were made by the various clubs
My point was (if we go back to the beginning of this conversation), and still is, if the Halifax submissions lacked clarity and quality in their budgets and forecasts then that is their own fault for submitting a below par document. And I say that because it is a shame for in many ways the club has got all the building blocks in place to be a successful and viable SL club
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| Quote ="Starbug"I am not reffering to the on field part of the sport , as the licence system disregards that to a large degree '"
No, it doesn't. On field success is very important.
Quote ="Starbug"What Fax submitted was the truth , from where they were starting from , and from what they reasonably expected to achieve , they told the truth , other clubs fill their applications with totally ourageous predictions based on business plans and forecasts'"
Really? When did you get access to all the applications?
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| Quote ="SEB"No, it doesn't. On field success is very important.
Really? When did you get access to all the applications?'"
Not to the RFL it doesn't
I didn't , but history tells us that I am right
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| Quote ="Starbug"And the point we are making is that through the use of positive and negative vocabulary , the RFL can make any club look good , or bad as they see fit'" That is generally how language works Starbug.
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| Quote ="rob_a"If that's the case shouldn't Fax have been told at this point that there was insufficient info in their application? Instead of being allowed to continue in the application process.'"
What if Wakefields was worse?
Its fairly simple. Fax submitted a bid, it wasnt very good, it was judged against a better one Widnes. It was then put forward to be judged against the other 13 bids which were submitted and because it wasnt very good the other 13 were chosen.
The RFL couldnt possibly know that the Fax bid wasnt better than one of the other 13 which had been submitted before they had looked at the other 13 submitted. When they had done so, they released their decision
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"What if Wakefields was worse?
Its fairly simple. Fax submitted a bid, it wasnt very good, it was judged against a better one Widnes. It was then put forward to be judged against the other 13 bids which were submitted and because it wasnt very good the other 13 were chosen.
The RFL couldnt possibly know that the Fax bid wasnt better than one of the other 13 which had been submitted before they had looked at the other 13 submitted. When they had done so, they released their decision'"
No the wording doesn't work like that ,it states KPMG couldn't properly check what they had put , it doesnt compare to other clubs applications at all , it is nothing more than a club ' Character assasination '
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| Quote ="Starbug"No the wording doesn't work like that ,it states KPMG couldn't properly check what they had put , it doesnt compare to other clubs applications at all , '" The two things arent mutually exclusive. The quality of the bid and the level to which the RFL could rely on the information provided within were part of the bid process. The fact KPMG couldnt properly check what they had put was correct impacted on the quality of the bid and how the RFL judged it. That doesnt discount them from judging another bid worse. Quote it is nothing more than a club ' Character assasination ''" Why would KPMG wish to do that? what problem do they have with Halifax?
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"The RFL couldnt possibly know that the Fax bid wasnt better than one of the other 13 which had been submitted before they had looked at the other 13 submitted. When they had done so, they released their decision'"
Don't be silly. There were plenty of people on here (and elsewhere) who knew which applications were better than others, even before they had been written.
You can't claim the RFL lack precognition when they clearly decided not to tell Halifax their bid was the worst (before seeing the others) in order to be able to publicly ridicule the Halifax bid in response to a future outburst by their chairman.
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