I do too, but it doesn't mean I should or will.

I think you are mistaken on pretty well all of your points.

When have any fans from Qld or NSW wanted to adopt a played born and developed to a reasonable talent from overseas.
The rules of SOO have seen some argument regarding who is Qld and NSW but do you really think Sydney fans want to cheer on Sam Burgess?
NO WAY IN THE WORLD.

Sounds good to me...

Sounds a bit mental to me.
Why do you think Australians regard "Pommies" as imperial overlords? maybe before WWII
Australia has been far more aligned with the USA since the 1950's than England and in the last two decades with Asia mainly Japan and now China.
I doubt many Aussies know or understand what the connection is with Great Britain, its was two generations ago.

This is a joke, too.

Ignoring any logistics and focussing on the idea only, you're suggesting to water down a hugely successful product that's never had anything to do with England, just to benefit England.

Why would NSW and QLD (the fans not the teams) want this? As a New South Welshman, I only want to play and beat QLD, and the feeling would be mutual on the other side. That is the rivalry, rich with history, that we turn out and tune in for three times a year. Origin has reached an all-time high in interest over the past couple of years. Why would anyone mess with it now?

As far as I'm aware he only went to the NRL to get Australian citizenship as the whole family wanted to emigrate.

Origin should stay exactly as it is. Why change a concept that works so well.

Not just England, but the international game as a whole. It can't be any more fun for you as an Australian to always be expecting to pound England in internationals than it is for us to expect always to beat, say, France. The professional sport is hardly capturing the public imagination at a national level here, and a large contribution to that is that the international game isn't very strong. A stronger international competition that improves the profile, uptake, support and sponsorship of RL in the UK would have benefits that feed back to Australia.

Also, I don't agree that it would water down SOO any more than, say, the Barbarians game degraded the current Union Lions tour. Be patronising and treat any England games as a pre-competition warm-up by all means. Treat them as 'tour games' conceptually distinct from SOO if it's going to be a problem - but we need a way to get the intensity of the game up to the same sort of level, and riding on the coat-tails of SOO could do that for it. It's a compliment to what SOO has become that it would be, practically, an international level game.



Maybe they're interested in the sport, and would want to watch the game? Possibly they would like to confirm that their state team can beat the third-ranked national side, and is as good as they think it is? They might be thinking more widely about what could benefit the sport as whole. It could even be that they would be led into some fakey tribal rivalry by clever marketing.



You may not be speaking for everyone and, to be fair, the three-match series has only been around since 1982 (and once had a fourth match for exhibition purposes). Also, before the 80s players were selected on the basis of where they were currently playing - not where they were born/played first. So it's not like the contest is some unchangeable ritual. Who knows, you might even come to enjoy beating England every year in a warm up to the SOO

France v England could be our SOO if France could get any good at playing RL!

I can't speak for everyone, but I'm absolutely certain 80k won't turn up to ANZ to watch NSW vs England, not even close. Neither will more than 10% of Australia's population tune in to watch it on TV. That is watering down Origin.

I don't want to see NSW beat England, that's what the Kangaroos are for. And for argument's sake, let's say NSW or QLD, or both states, did beat England. What good could that possibly do for the international game? Might as well put it in a coffin. Potential to harm it and Origin at the same time.

Let's just leave it, please.

Well, over 50k turned up to see QLD Reds play the touring union side last week - even though they're also playing the national side, and weren't expecting to win - so if you're not the kind of person who can be bothered to go, I hope you're not representative. Or is union bigger than league down there, now?



If the international game was healthy, I might agree. But it's not. It's dying on its through lack of interest and a microscopic media profile. No-one at work (I'm outside the heartlands) knows there's a world cup this year - they all know there's a union world cup next year, even though they aren't even rugby fans. Why is there a lack of interest? In part because we wallop France, and get walloped by you lot, while you lot wallop everyone apart from NZ - and no-one's interested in one-sided contests (and the media don't give a toss, by and large). If there isn't actually competition in games, there won't be a meaningful international competition at all.

Even Sky couldn't be bothered putting on a half-hour pre-game preview for the England/Exiles game. The people who give a toss are currently a subset of the hardened club fans. If we want a healthy sport that will prosper, we have to get interest from casual viewers, and that interest is realistically only going to come with internationals and media coverage. And they're only going to care if they're competitive.

We carry on down this route, and professional RL will be confined to Sydney, with a couple of expansion clubs in Brisbane, Auckland and Melbourne. There's success and an attractive product in SOO - we could use that as leverage for the good of the game.

Or not. It's not like anyone's going to read this thread and follow up on the idea

Over half of which were travelling Lions fans.

15k Queenslanders would still be more than we convinced to go [iany[/i "International Origin" game, over here.

But you were talking about Australia, not 'over here'.

But I was replying to [iyou[/i, and [iyou[/i were talking about the number of touring Lions fans, to make the point that a large part of that 50k were tourists. The news suggests about 30k are over there to see the Lions games, so that would imply about 20k Aussies/others turning up to watch the Reds play the Lions. Which is more than have ever turned up for any Exiles game.

And who was taking about the Exiles?

Have a look at page 1 of the thread.

But you were answering to the point that 80k wouldn't attend NSW vs England in Sydney by comparing it to the Lions.

On the topic : Aussies wouldn't turn out for NSW v England because they see representative RL as a joke when it's outside their own country - the purpose of origin there is the rivalry between NSW and Queensland, whilst they couldn't care less for England RL.

I was specifically pointing out that a large number of people turned up for a state vs. international game. Do you disagree with that? I think it contradicts the claim that Aussies won't turn up for a (meaningless) state vs international match. What do you think?



That's the same point that CGD was making, and it seems to come from the same assumption that the Aussies aren't interested, and will never be interested, in anything other than what's already put in front of them. But, as Ganson's Optician pointed out on page 1, even SOO in the three-game format wasn't welcomed warmly, initially. People said it wouldn't work, and the early attendances were pretty ordinary (19k at Lang Park in 1982). It's not as though SOO made it to where it is - selling out ANZ - without a lot of hard work and promotion. So, even concepts that people might be sceptical about can become successful. I think you're being too pessimistic, and underestimating Australian fans.

Even if we accept that all Aussies think of rep RL as a joke, we're hardly going to change anyone's mind without attempting to improve the quality of international RL. And, FWIW, the Aussies I work with aren't RL fans and couldn't give a toss about SOO but - where they'd be bothered at all - would be interested in internationals.

Hey look I'm not suggesting Aussie fans will never be interested, but the way to get them interested is to continue to grow the international game rather than manufacturing silly concepts IMO.

If you say "Aussies wouldn't turn out for NSW v England because they see representative RL as a joke when it's outside their own country", you sort of are





How do you think we could do that? Which of the completely non-silly concepts of the Exiles, Four Nations, and France internationals grew the international game and improved the quality of the competition?

I happen to like the Exiles concept, but there are two glaring problems with it: half the England team are down under, and the better Aussies earn more at home, these days.

To improve, I think we'll need better opposition, and we need to get the first-choice squad playing together. I don't think England playing QLD or NSW is a silly concept (and neither did the recent Lions tour organisers, though YMMV), and it would fulfil both of those requirements.

1) I said the Aussies wouldn't turn out if it happened now. Maybe if we beat them in the World Cup they will sit up and notice us.

2) England should play New Zealand and the other Pacific nations, which would be of actual benefit to the international game whilst providing a challenge.

I don't see what playing the Aussie heartland regions does for improving our international game OR helping England improve?!

I take it back - you're not pessimistic





That would do me. We'd still have to take the team down under for it to be feasible and, as they would be proper internationals, the Australian clubs couldn't refuse to release players.



Better quality opposition and a chance to get the full squad together. Both of which would also be achieved by playing NZ and the (stronger) Pacific islands.

Your mixing up too many concepts. I'd love us to play a 'Lions' tour again in RL , playing club and lesser rep sides midweek . Do it every 4 years and it would be great. England playing and getting stuffed by NSW or QSL? No ta it would be even more embarrassing than the normal bitchslapping we get from the Kangaroo's

As for Burgess and being an Aussie? His choice I guess but it shouldnt matter if you get a passport or not , once you've nailed your colours to a mast you should be forced to stick with it. Moving international 'allegiances' just makes RL look even more of a joke.

They get 40k a game for playing SOO, I'd want to play it as well if I was in the NRL!