As one who lost loved ones at Valley Parade in 1985 I have followed the Hillsborough news closely and greet today's news with little surprise.

I cannot begin to imagine having to deal with the pain of bereavement in such tragic circumstances and then cope with the lies, cover-ups and accusations that followed.

The families of the deceased, and the survivors, have behaved with such dignity and class throughout the last 23 years, fighting on regardless of the inquest verdicts, govt cover-ups and Police Officer promotions along the way.

I sincerely hope that today is the beginning of what will be a very painful process for those involved in the deaths, the injuries and the subsequent cover-ups.

May those that died Rest in Peace and those responsible never again know what peace feels like.

I've just quickly read the [url=http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/repository/report/HIP_report.pdfReport of the Independent Hillsborough Panel[/url.

A compelling but upsetting read. The scale of the blunders, and the cover-ups, is astonishing, and deeply depressing.

it would appear our chief Constable is complicit irr the ''cover up'and there are calls for him to resign! Rightly So!

The report is an utterly shocking read. Not just a cover up but a fit up by South Yorkshire Police. Disgusting.

Most of the criticism seems to have been directed quite rightly at the police, but the one organisation that doesnt seem to be getting the blame it deserves is the FA. The match was staged in a stadium that didnt have a safety certificate and was entirely unsuitable.

Semi Finals were routinely played at Hillsborough at that time and it was clear every year that the Leppings Lane end was grossly over crowded. There was very nearly a similar disaster in 1981 when many fans were injured but fortunately not killed during the Spurs v Wolves game. A mate of mine, a Man United fan well used to crowded terraces, went to one of their semi finals in the 70's and said he spent the game absolutely terrified.

It was like the RFL staging a game at Headingley and allocating the same number of tickets for the West Terrace as for the South Stand simply to achieve parity between the two sets of fans.

If the Sun hadn't come up with that stupid and patently untrue headline, the Police would not have had the wherewithal and time to start a panic ridden cover up!

And if thousands of Liverpool fans had not turned up without tickets for the game then there would not have been too many in the terracing whatsoever. There is blame on all sides here. I wait the apologies from the fans without tickets who caused the crush in the first place. These people have plenty of blood on their hands too.

We live in a blame culture I am afraid, some people are never satisfied until the finger can be pointed at someone, preferably with the funds to pay compensation. The truth seems to be the ground itself wasn't suitable for the size of crowd that day, the police paniced by the crush outside the ground opened up the exit gate without thinking about where the fans would then go. But all the people calling for the heads of the various policemen should ask themselves what they would have done in that split second situation without the wonderful benefit of hindsight.

I totally agree. It's too easy to point the finger of blame at the Police. If they hadn't opened the gates and a riot had ensued there would have been plenty of people moaning about heavy handed policing etc. The fact of the matter is that the decent fans who turned up early to watch the match were victims of the drunken yob element who stormed the ground in a drunken rampage.

Quote ="mystic eddie"And if thousands of Liverpool fans had not turned up without tickets for the game then there would not have been too many in the terracing whatsoever. There is blame on all sides here. I wait the apologies from the fans without tickets who caused the crush in the first place. These people have plenty of blood on their hands too.'" I suggest you read the post by Live Wired in this thread. viewtopic.php?f=11&t=536809&tsmp=1347543636&start=40 The police prevented the problem the year before.

Quote ="mystic eddie"And if thousands of Liverpool fans had not turned up without tickets for the game then there would not have been too many in the terracing whatsoever. There is blame on all sides here. I wait the apologies from the fans without tickets who caused the crush in the first place. These people have plenty of blood on their hands too.'" I suggest you read the post by Live Wired in this thread. viewtopic.php?f=11&t=536809&tsmp=1347543636&start=40 The police prevented the problem the year before.

Utterly shameful remark. There really is no excuse for such knee-jerkery when the comprehensive facts of what actually happened are in the public domain now. I would urge you to read the full report before making any more completely wrong comments. Ironically, you have basically just repeated what Kelvin McKenzie finally today abjectly apologised for claiming all those years ago in THAT headline. Even he accepts there was no truth in it, yet you repeat it.

There was no drunken yob element and you should apologise unreservedly.

There was no drunken rampage. In fact, the efforts of the police to fit up the deceased by disgracefully running blood-alcohol tests spectacularly backfired as the tests showed that, actually, the vast majority had drunk only modest amounts if anything. And that any blood alcohol level should in any case clearly be judged by the standards of a pedestrian at a social occasion, not the legal limit for a driver behind the bloody wheel as they tried to do.

There was no rampage, and no evidence of fans without tickets causing problems. Anyway, if you had no ticket, wouldn't you be away from the turnstiles finding a tout to buy one from?

The crush outside the ground happened simply because the police let anyone who wanted approach the turnstiles instead of imposing any sort of queuing. As there were several turnstiles, each operating at a snail's pace, and many fans anxious to get in to a game that was starting, a crush developed which would not have ever happened if the fans had been organised into queues. As had been done in previous games, and is not rocket science.

The crush inside the ground happened because the access that the police insisted was opened led directly to the central tunnel into the pens that were already full. But the police at the back of the pens did not know that and the police who were supposed to be watching the pens incomprehensibly failed to tell those at the back to close the tunnel into the central pens first. By simply closing the tunnel gates, nobody would have died. Whereas the fans streaming through the opened gate were immediately confronted by a tunnel leading into the pens, and of course had absolutely no idea that the pens were already full.

The exhaustively comprehensive report fully absolves the Liverpool fans. Further attempts to demonize and blame them are disgusting and totally inexcusable.

Indeed.



A fact established several times by the people charged with public order and crowd safety by several other experiences in the years leading up to this game.



And without any regard to their previous experiences in that same ground and same stand.



I'd have organised a systematic campaign of lies and blame shifting so that the dead were the ones left to carry the can. That way my ignoring all my previous experience of exactly the sorts of problems that led to those deaths would begin to look less like the kind of irresponsibility that leads to manslaughter charges and more like I was a participant in a thankless task which had gone tragically wrong thanks to the actions of drunken, small minded idiots. Then I'd trust in the willingness of people to believe the story they first heard no matter how in depth the proof that it was all bull, lies and misdirection actually was.

Quote ="Ferocious Aardvark"I've just quickly read the [url=http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/repository/report/HIP_report.pdfReport of the Independent Hillsborough Panel[/url. A compelling but upsetting read. The scale of the blunders, and the cover-ups, is astonishing, and deeply depressing.'" Thanks for sticking that up. Haven't had chance to have more than a skim but noticed Bettison has issued a statement. www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012 ... -statement

Quote ="Ferocious Aardvark"I've just quickly read the [url=http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/repository/report/HIP_report.pdfReport of the Independent Hillsborough Panel[/url. A compelling but upsetting read. The scale of the blunders, and the cover-ups, is astonishing, and deeply depressing.'" Thanks for sticking that up. Haven't had chance to have more than a skim but noticed Bettison has issued a statement. www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012 ... -statement

Quote ="M@islebugs"Thanks for sticking that up. Haven't had chance to have more than a skim but noticed Bettison has issued a statement. www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012 ... -statement'" Quote ="Bettison"Taylor was right in saying that the disaster was caused, mainly, through a lack of police control. Fans' behaviour, to the extent that it was relevant at all, made the job of the police, in the crush outside Leppings Lane turnstiles, harder than it needed to be. But it didn't cause the disaster any more than the sunny day that encouraged people to linger outside the stadium as kick-off approached. It is against that backcloth that any documents with my name attached, out of the 400,000 revealed, must be seen. ... . NOT to apportion any blame whatsoever to the fans.'"

Quote ="M@islebugs"Thanks for sticking that up. Haven't had chance to have more than a skim but noticed Bettison has issued a statement. www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012 ... -statement'" Quote ="Bettison"Taylor was right in saying that the disaster was caused, mainly, through a lack of police control. Fans' behaviour, to the extent that it was relevant at all, made the job of the police, in the crush outside Leppings Lane turnstiles, harder than it needed to be. But it didn't cause the disaster any more than the sunny day that encouraged people to linger outside the stadium as kick-off approached. It is against that backcloth that any documents with my name attached, out of the 400,000 revealed, must be seen. ... . NOT to apportion any blame whatsoever to the fans.'"

Did anyone see the slimy double dyed MP for Sheffield, Betts I believe he`s called, on Look North last night. He was leader of Sheffield council at the time, the ones who granted Hillsboro the safety certificate. When asked why it was granted he would not answer only to apologise profusly and blame the police, typical MP no wonder nobody has any faith in the establishment.

The FA have issued a belated apology now.

The other emergency services were also at fault in various ways plus Sheffield Wednesday and the local authority. However as "lead responder" the police must bear most responsibility. Their preparation for the game and response on the day were woeful but the cover up and attempt to blacken the names of the victims is utterly unforgivable and those responsible should be locked up.

Not sure about that. I thought that overall the ambulance service came out of it well? Can't recall any criticism of the fire service but it's a long document.

The point was though that both ambulance service and fire service were - naturally - part of major disaster planning and the reason that neither swung into major disaster mode immediately was again the inexcusable fault of the police, who, incredibly, forgot to declare a major emergency. Had they contacted the ambulance service and decalred a disaster, and used the codeword CATASTROPHE designated precisely for the purpose, then eg the "Fleet of ambulances" would indeed have been immediately despatched. As it was, as there was no declared emergency, they weren't and could not be.

Another terrible result was that the fire service, who would have had cutting etc. equipment to tear down the pitch side fencing and relieve the crush, were for the same reasons similarly delayed in a full attendance. That fact, taken with the news that in fact the claim that all victims 'would have been dead by 3.15 anyway' was yet another falsehood, leads to the unpalatable possibility that people who died in the crush would have been capable of being saved had a full emergency been immediately declared.


Indeed, but we have people still vilifying the Liverpool fans on this very thread.

Can't argue with most of that. My criticisms of SYMAS and the Fire Service was more to do with their preparations. Not turning up for planning meetings and therefore making sure they were incorporated in emergency plans with proper lines of communication. Obviously the police as chair of the planning group were remiss here but the other agencies should have known that they had a part to play in planning for football matches and been more thorough in their preparations. Similar blame should also be apportioned to the FA, SWFC and the local authority.

On the day itself SYMAS was hampered by the negligence of the police in failing to declare a major incident, but nobody seemed to do any triage at the scene, a responsibility that could have been assumed without the need for approval on high. Thankfully the local hospitals were on the ball or it could have been even worse.

"The SYP decision to replace the experienced match commander, Chief Superintendent Brian Mole, and appoint Chief Superintendent David Duckenfield who had minimal experience of policing at Hillsborough, just weeks before an FA Cup semi-final, has been previously criticised. None of the documents disclosed to the Panel indicated the rationale behind this decision."

This seems to be a key decision in the pre-match planning. A shame the report couldn't get to the bottom of it. And this would have been a senior (assistant chief constable?) management decision I would have thought.

Shame on you.

Disgraceful by the Torygraph to not even have a mention of it on their front page. Absolutely shocking.

Had you run out of bog paper?

Oh dear, you haven't a clue have you - there's a public findings report out in the open, maybe you should take a look at it before making statements like that !!!!!

Some of the posts on this thread are beyond contempt.

The report is unequivocal in its' removal of ANY "blame" from the supporters, and at the same time apportions blame quite directly at the door of those charged with protecting and serving the public.

Before you pedal your 8ull again just stop and think about how it might feel for your loved ones never to come back from a football match. Then imagine being told it was their fault. Then imagine fighting 23 years for the truth. Then imagine the truth being accepted by all involved. Then imagine some loser - yes that's you - continuing to repeat the lies and smears about your DEAD relatives.

And when you've done that - do one.

Any fan of any large club that played a high profile match in the 80 s is fully aware of what used to happen, a large number of Liverpool fans turned up without tickets, the options to them were either steal a ticket from a fellow fan, bribe a turnstyle operator or steward, or finally ' force ' entry

It is those fans that caused the Hillsborough disaster , what happened afterwards was completely wrong, but it wasnt the cause , I also await the day when 1 single fan stands up and says " I was there that day without a ticket, I am partly to blame, I am sorry