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We've heard a lot this season, and continue to do so, about how we are banking on developing a stream of talent from our Academy. Indeed it is insinuated that we should 'put up' with woeful performances in the present, because better days are not too far ahead because we are soon going to be bringing through talented kids who will take Superleague by storm.
This may be heresy - but I would like to question whether this is going to be the case.
Firstly, despite the assertion by Peter Hood in his website / programme notes spiel last week, our Reserve Grade and Academy are not 'tearing up' their respective league. They are doing OK, but they are not beating all-comers. The tables are available www.therfl.co.uk/~therflc/tables ... uperleague for Reserve Grade, and here www.therfl.co.uk/~therflc/tables ... uperleague for the Academy. As I say, they are further up the table than the 1st team (wouldn't be hard), but if we are really producing world beater shouldn't we be carrying all before us?
Second, I heard McNamara saying on Radio Leeds last weekend about how we had 'blooded 4 youngsters this season' as if this was some sort of unique event in Super League. But most other teams are blooding youngsters as well, and will no doubt have high hopes that their kids are going to be 'tearing up' Superleague in years to come
So, I had a look at the 1st Team Squad of a couple of our rivals. If we look at St Helens, and look at how many of their own Academy products who are 20 years old or under have played this season, I counted : Wheeler, Ashurst, Lomax, Dean, Eastmond, Frodsham and Armstrong. I did the same exercise for Wigan and found : Ainscough, Tomkins, Mossop, Flanagan (who we let go), Goudling and McIlorum.
We've given debuts to Crookes (who surely would have played more but for injury) in the early part of the season, and more latterly Whitehead and Donaldson. Olbison made a cameo but seems to have slipped back down the pecking order. We've yet to see Crossley, we've yet to see Hyde or Straughier - yet all three are actually older than some of the players who are already getting regular game time for Saints and Wigan
So, we actually don't have that great a record in bringing in young players this season, and - in any case - our Reserve and Academy teams are not winning every week and thereby giving an impression that there is a whole load of players knocking on the First Team door
I'm not saying this to be critical, and I should add that I've never watched the Reserves or Academy, I'm just bringing it up because we are being told that we should be placing our faith for the future in the development of younger players, and I'm not that convinced that there is that much evidence to back it up
I'll put my tin hat on now |
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We've heard a lot this season, and continue to do so, about how we are banking on developing a stream of talent from our Academy. Indeed it is insinuated that we should 'put up' with woeful performances in the present, because better days are not too far ahead because we are soon going to be bringing through talented kids who will take Superleague by storm.
This may be heresy - but I would like to question whether this is going to be the case.
Firstly, despite the assertion by Peter Hood in his website / programme notes spiel last week, our Reserve Grade and Academy are not 'tearing up' their respective league. They are doing OK, but they are not beating all-comers. The tables are available www.therfl.co.uk/~therflc/tables ... uperleague for Reserve Grade, and here www.therfl.co.uk/~therflc/tables ... uperleague for the Academy. As I say, they are further up the table than the 1st team (wouldn't be hard), but if we are really producing world beater shouldn't we be carrying all before us?
Second, I heard McNamara saying on Radio Leeds last weekend about how we had 'blooded 4 youngsters this season' as if this was some sort of unique event in Super League. But most other teams are blooding youngsters as well, and will no doubt have high hopes that their kids are going to be 'tearing up' Superleague in years to come
So, I had a look at the 1st Team Squad of a couple of our rivals. If we look at St Helens, and look at how many of their own Academy products who are 20 years old or under have played this season, I counted : Wheeler, Ashurst, Lomax, Dean, Eastmond, Frodsham and Armstrong. I did the same exercise for Wigan and found : Ainscough, Tomkins, Mossop, Flanagan (who we let go), Goudling and McIlorum.
We've given debuts to Crookes (who surely would have played more but for injury) in the early part of the season, and more latterly Whitehead and Donaldson. Olbison made a cameo but seems to have slipped back down the pecking order. We've yet to see Crossley, we've yet to see Hyde or Straughier - yet all three are actually older than some of the players who are already getting regular game time for Saints and Wigan
So, we actually don't have that great a record in bringing in young players this season, and - in any case - our Reserve and Academy teams are not winning every week and thereby giving an impression that there is a whole load of players knocking on the First Team door
I'm not saying this to be critical, and I should add that I've never watched the Reserves or Academy, I'm just bringing it up because we are being told that we should be placing our faith for the future in the development of younger players, and I'm not that convinced that there is that much evidence to back it up
I'll put my tin hat on now | |
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I always think that league tables for reserves and academy are largely meaningless. A lot depends on the relative ages of the players. And an academy team that finishes mid table but produces 4 first team players is preferable to one that wins titles but doesnt produce any top level players.
I remember watching the Bulls win the academy or reserves title at Headingley a few years back, the night they switched the lights off. I think that team included Karl Pryce and Atkins who were the only players to go on to first team rugby. The rest of the players were capable enough at that level, good enough to win the title, but never looked likely to make the top grade.
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According to John Monie a club can only reasonably expect to get two decent first teamers coming from the academy each year. Any more than that is definitely the exception even with a well developed academy structure.
There's a huge amount of players that fall by the wayside and fail to make it at the highest level.
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I believe the children are our are future. Teach them well and let them lead the way. Show them all the beauty they possess inside. Give them a sense of pride to make it easier. Let the children's laughter remind us how we used to be. Everybody searching for a hero. People need someone to look up to. I never found anyone to fulfill my needs. A lonely place to be. So I learned to depend on me. I decided long ago, never to walk in anyone's shadows. If I fail, if I succeed, At least I live as I believe. No matter what they take from me, They can't take away my dignity. Because the greatest love of all Is happening to me. I found the greatest love of all Inside of me. The greatest love of all Is easy to achieve. Learning to love yourself, It is the greatest love of all. I believe the children are our future. Teach them well and let them lead the way. Show them all the beauty they possess inside. Give them a sense of pride to make it easier. Let the children's laughter remind us how we used to be. And if by chance, that special place That you've been dreaming of Leads you to a lonely place. Find your strength in love
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| Quote ="tigertot"I believe the children are our are future. Teach them well and let them lead the way. Show them all the beauty they possess inside. Give them a sense of pride to make it easier. Let the children's laughter remind us how we used to be. Everybody searching for a hero. People need someone to look up to. I never found anyone to fulfill my needs. A lonely place to be. So I learned to depend on me. I decided long ago, never to walk in anyone's shadows. If I fail, if I succeed, At least I live as I believe. No matter what they take from me, They can't take away my dignity. Because the greatest love of all Is happening to me. I found the greatest love of all Inside of me. The greatest love of all Is easy to achieve. Learning to love yourself, It is the greatest love of all. I believe the children are our future. Teach them well and let them lead the way. Show them all the beauty they possess inside. Give them a sense of pride to make it easier. Let the children's laughter remind us how we used to be. And if by chance, that special place That you've been dreaming of Leads you to a lonely place. Find your strength in love'"
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| Quote ="tigertot" you've been dreaming of Leads '"
Dreaming of Leeds? I think not 
I still think there's a serious point here though. Basically, we seem to be being fed the line that we will be successful in the future because we are bringing through the kids. But other teams are bringing through kids too...
And if last weekends Saints vs Wigan match is a guide, they are bringing through more and better quality. |
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Good post, but while we might not catch Leeds and Saints with a strong youth structure, we definitely won't without one. Do we have one? Seems like we're closer than we were before but you raise reasonable questions about that.
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| Quote ="paulwalker71"I still think there's a serious point here though. Basically, we seem to be being fed the line that we will be successful in the future because we are bringing through the kids. But other teams are bringing through kids too...
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Bringing through kids doesnt guantee success, precisely because other clubs are trying to do the same. But not bringing through kids probably guarantees failure.
Having a core of young players, earning not very much but being good enough to hold down a place in the squad, frees up cap space to sign other better quality players. Using St Helens as an example, the emergence of Roby, Wilkin, Graham & Gardner in 2006 allowed them the scope to sign Pryce, Cayless, Lyons & Meli.
Burgess apart we didnt bring through many young players until this year and have been forced to pay decent money for journeyman players. |
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| Quote ="Cibaman"Bringing through kids doesnt guantee success, precisely because other clubs are trying to do the same. But not bringing through kids probably guarantees failure.
Having a core of young players, earning not very much but being good enough to hold down a place in the squad, frees up cap space to sign other better quality players. Using St Helens as an example, the emergence of Roby, Wilkin, Graham & Gardner in 2006 allowed them the scope to sign Pryce, Cayless, Lyons & Meli.
Burgess apart we didnt bring through many young players until this year and have been forced to pay decent money for journeyman players.'"
Nail meets head.
The bit in bold is (partly) why Leeds and Saints have done so well in the last few years maintaining such a strong squad, one example (of many)would be Hall from Leeds, top try scorer this season, but I suspect on a lot lot less money cap wise than Sheriffe is, so they get more bang for their buck. It absolutely where we need to be heading, but its no guarante as others have said, it just gets us back to playing the same game, as the top clubs in terms of available cap spend and squad depth. |
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| Quote ="Cibaman"Bringing through kids doesnt guantee success, precisely because other clubs are trying to do the same. But not bringing through kids probably guarantees failure.
Having a core of young players, earning not very much but being good enough to hold down a place in the squad, frees up cap space to sign other better quality players. Using St Helens as an example, the emergence of Roby, Wilkin, Graham & Gardner in 2006 allowed them the scope to sign Pryce, Cayless, Lyons & Meli.
Burgess apart we didnt bring through many young players until this year and have been forced to pay decent money for journeyman players.'"
Yeah, that and some other stuff. |
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| Quote ="Cibaman"
Having a core of young players, earning not very much but being good enough to hold down a place in the squad, frees up cap space to sign other better quality players. .'"
Yes Saints have been excellent at this. They've always taken care of the core positions - Halfbacks, hooker and LF and the odd marquee and generally filled the rest of the team with good squad players. This has been backed up with good training and drilling to maintain the highest skill levels and the emergence of good youth talent like Graham, Cunningham and now Eastmond for example |
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The future is in our kids so lets let our and possibly the worlds hottest prospect in RL go, for £200,000. I'd want at least £500,000 or £250,000 plus a quality player.
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| Quote ="Ewwenorfolk"possibly the worlds hottest prospect'"
Nonsense. |
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| Quote ="Ewwenorfolk"The future is in our kids so lets let our and possibly the worlds hottest prospect in RL go, for £200,000. I'd want at least £500,000 or £250,000 plus a quality player.'"
I know Deacs is good but that's a bit OTT IMO. |
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| Quote ="Ewwenorfolk"The future is in our kids so lets let our and possibly the worlds hottest prospect in RL go, for £200,000. I'd want at least £500,000 or £250,000 plus a quality player.'"
Mate, the trouble is, if that's not what the player wants then you are stuffed. If Sam wants to go to Oz and gets a decent offer, he'll go - one way or the other. No club will want to pay big bucks every month to a hacked-off player who will just go through the motions at best. Bulls will appreciate this, and I guess hold out for the best deal they can get that lets Sam go. |
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| Quote ="Adeybull"Mate, the trouble is, if that's not what the player wants then you are stuffed. If Sam wants to go to Oz and gets a decent offer, he'll go - one way or the other. No club will want to pay big bucks every month to a hacked-off player who will just go through the motions at best. Bulls will appreciate this, and I guess hold out for the best deal they can get that lets Sam go.'"
Yes I agree, but £200,000 is not enough without a player aswell, and we certainly want first refusal. |
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| Quote ="Ewwenorfolk"Yes I agree, but £200,000 is not enough without a player aswell, and we certainly want first refusal.'"
That is a football thing. I don't think that can work outside of football. In football it is a mid-contract option. ie the player we bought from you is 2yrs into a 5yr deal but we don't want him anymore. you have first option, the asking price is £3mill, are you interested?
In RL, if Sam went to Oz for 3rs then wanted to return, when his 3yrs are up, the contract is over and he is a free agent. there is no contract to insert a clause into at that point. If he went to RU, that would be different.... |
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Maybe this would be a good time to point out that:
1. The clause could not be put in Sam's existing contract - since that would be being cancelled by mutual agreement.
2. The clause could not be in Sam's new Contract with the Oz club - since that is between Sam and that club and Bulls would not be party to it.
3. The clause could not be in a separate contract between the Bulls and the Oz club - because that would be between the two clubs and Sam - the person affected - would not be party to it an therefore not bound by a clear restraint of trade (at the very least).
The only likely scenario would surely be if Sam signed a separate contract with the Bulls, along the lines of "in consideration of you agreeing to release me from my (playing) contract early, without seeking compensation from me, I agree that should I seek to return to play in SL in the next x years I agree to enter into a new playing contract with Bradford, should they elect to offer me one. I further agree that Bradford may give me a contract and then themselves accept an offer from another SL club for which they will be entitled to seek a transfer fee".
Provided this separate agreement was of clear benefit to Sam (and you'd probably have to show serious financial as well as personal benefit) and everything else was well nailed-down and interlocking, and he was in no way "cohersed" by anyone, our friend Mr Justice Gray would probably rule that the contract was enforceable and not a restraint of trade.
Now...does anyone recognise a recent parallel with that scenario?
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we might not even want him back at Bradford after his stint in the NRL?
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| Quote ="phillgee"we might not even want him back at Bradford after his stint in the NRL?'"
Yes thats true, but if he has to re-sign with us, we could sell him on then. |
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