Shocking news this morning when it was announced the first person to stand in the dock was a 31 year old teacher - She pleaded 'guilty' to the looting charges. She had a respectful job with a decent salary, what's the society come/coming to?

Teaching assistant, not teacher. But the point still stands.

And I think it would be fair to say ex-teaching assistant now...

My bad - Just saw the updates on BBC news this morning.

What chance have the kids got if some of those we expect them to respect set such a dreadful example?

True.

It's just like Child looking upto Cummings.

I think you can level that charge at pretty well all governments in living memory for most people, though? For differing reasons. One statistic that continues to surprise me is that UK manufacturing apparently contracted more under the last government than under any other, including even the Thatcher one.

Personally, it scares the hell out of me that we have lost both the ability and the will to make things in so many fields. Yet we all want cheap TVs and computers and appliances and clothes and everything else. I was brought up near Leicester, and - as an example - a huge underwear etc manufacturer there (Corah) closed because its main customer (M&S) could get the product far cheaper from overseas. And Joe Public would not pay the price for UK-made garments. How many times was that repeated, up here and everywhere else?

When I came back from NZ in 1987, I decided to buy British wherever possible. Did not last long - prices were too high, quality and choice too poor. How many of us would willingly pay twice or three times the price to support British manufacturers paying the wages British people expect, not Chinese ones? Those looting yobs are not prepared to pay even cheap imported prices!

I'll get slammed for this comment but personally I can't see how any good will come from this. We'll have a review that will pinpoint the various other issues that have led up to this exhibition of criminality and mindless/pointless destruction but for me the main issue here will not be addressed. That for me is bad parenting. Until that is seen by society for what - in my mind - it actually is - a form of child abuse - nothing will change. If you do not bring your kids up with enough self respect to not behave like this you are not giving them the start in life any young person deserves and you do not love them. You are in fact neglecting them. We've even had the situation of parents taking their kids out looting in London. This should see the parents given custodial sentences for child neglect that they should serve after their jail terms for riot/looting.

I am opposed to many of the current government's policies especially things like the scrapping of the EMA, cuts etc but that has absolutely nothing to do with what we have seen over the last few days. If government policy was the reason behind it why did they attack the Chestnut Centre in Huddersfield last night? This is a non profit organisation working really hard to improve living standards in that area and to improve the prospects of young people living round there. I would have thought that they'd leave somewhere like that alone if there was a political agenda here.

Not by me. I agree with the general thrust of it, although I think very considerable blame also needs laying at the door of the metropolitan liberal social consensus that created the environment?. I suggest too many ordinary decent folk have had too many years of seeing the lazy, the workshy, the selfish and the greedy (and that applies equally if not more so at the top), the corrupt (especially in the institutions of power) and the anti-social (and worse) seemingly getting away with the actions that the rest of us have to pay for? Too many folk been brought up to think the country owes them a living and that they have no responsibilities.

The "cuts" will be a fact of life for years now - across most of the western world, after years of living beyond its means - and would have been regardless of who was in power, despite the posturing to the contrary. My own view is that even more severe cutbacks would have been forced on any incumbent government by now, had the initial measures not been taken, but there are a wide range of differing views on that! But even if we had full employment, I suggest we would still have many hundreds of thoudsands who would still have no intention of getting a job while the state - i.e. us - pays?

The parlous state of the nation's finances, and the stretching of limited resources, will be greatly helped though by the few taxpayers left having to pick up a multi-billion pound bill for the riot damage, on top of everything else.

To be fair, the more I hear Cameron spouting his sh**e, the more it makes me want to kick off too...

There is problems with "society" is there David? The society that you are in charge of is that? Right. We are all in it together are we? Whatever.

And bring yourself down to the looters' level? And set a great example? Come on!

Anyway, did you hear any more sense from the last lot? Who were "in charge of it" for 13 years?

I never did, despite all the early hopes.

Do you expect to hear any more sense from the next lot? Whoever they will turn out to be and however long they may be in for?

Me neither. Meet the new boss; same as the old boss.

Plus ça change...

If these deadbeats were raking in £600 a week in benefits (they are not this is an example) i still think they would have done exactly the same.

These people have no morals and only care about themselves, watching the accounts and listening to LBC and BBC London the victims were being taunted through this.
So not only were they happy to steal and then destroy but also taunt and rub crap(not literally) in to the victims faces.

One account of a lady trapped in her shop with looters outside throwing bricks through her window and laughing at her because she was scared and then taunting her saying they were going to beat her up.

When the liberals come out with their solutions for criminals and criminal reform what they fail to realise is 'their' form of justice just doesn't translate to these feral scum bags.

So this lot not prepared to take any responsibilty for anything then? So where will it end? We can all go on blaming each other for everything that's wrong in society and that way none of us ever have to sort it out. Cameron's setting the example for the yobs to follow - it's not our fault.

Funnily enough I think there might be quite a few lessons to be learned from how things are handled in the Bradford area. Since the riots here 10 years ago the police, council and community groups have worked really hard to monitor tensions, sort out problems and as a result it didn't kick off. Add to that the memories of the sentences handed out to rioters and the effect it had on the city and I felt quietly confident it wouldn't happen here.

There needs to be some stiff sentences for the rioters but that shouldn't be the end of it. The reasons it happened are many and complex. From respect for law and order to education, employment and dealing with disengagement and alienation. It's all connected and it requires government to take an intelligent line rather than go for a vote winning populist approach.

Someone once said "The most dangerous creation of any society is the man who has nothing to lose."

How can they be held responsible for a huge problem in society that has been building up over many years?

What history WILL judge them on is how they respond to it, and what steps they try to take to start fixing it. As the previous government will be judged and be found to have been wanting, and indeed every one before that that I can remember.

They can't evade all responsibility - just look at things like Cameron's "hug a hoodie" waknerage as an example of the sort of historical nonsense that IMO only reinforced the problem (doubtless he'd not be wanting to hug one of them now, since its different soundbites required?) - but you have to look at the dreadful example set by so many in all those groups I listed on another forum* over the years, and the dreadful policies that too many in politics have promoted, for the root causes. Surely?

Its easy to make cheap political points out of all this mess, and even easier to blame the current incumbents for everything (as happens with every change of government, of whatever hue). What is harder is for many many people to face up to the root causes of the mess, and recognise that to an extent we all likely bear some responsibility.


*...those in charge - now and historically - in: government, politics, much of the public sector, pretty well every fekking scumbag bank, far too many big companies, the media, sport, entertainment, the bloody church ffs, and anywhere else that youngsters might be expected to look to as role models"

Well that's it...we are well and truly fekked then!

I think what we're seeing is the result of bourgeois liberalism's accomodation with international global capitalism. From the war to the 70s there was a social contract primarily based upon the sacrifices people had made in the war alongside their social class. People had to be treated well in industrial relations, access to education, the welfare state all came out of this social contract which was upheld by successive governments. Firstly, in the 60s it was challenged by predominantly middle class social libertarians who questioned the rights of church, state, community to pronounce upon the sexual conduct of others. In the 70s it was challenged by the unions who utlimately challenged the state's/capital's right to determine the management of industry. In the 80s this was challenged and ostensibly defeated by Thatcherism. Since then, and with tacit support from the Labour, feminist, gay, anti-racist movements we have an accomodation which accepts the right of capital to extract as much surplus value as absolutely possible by paying people as little as possible and by importing as much labour as will keep the wage demands of the reserve army of labour in check. In return the forces of capital will make no judgements on the sexual behaviour, family structure, roll of fathers, conduct in public areas, discipline in schools. Global capitalism has also showered us with consumer goods that it has extracted from labour in various other parts of the world.

The swinging 60s, the free market dogma of the 80s, the globalisation of the 90s and noughties are all social and economic phenomena which for both good and ill, have eroded the strict codes which governed behaviour 40 years ago. The credit crunch highlighted 'mindless wealth'. The appropriation of bonuses and salaries from an industry in collapse and shored up by goverment. Not so much in response but occuring alongside this is an exploson of mindless violence from people who clearly have socio-economic, ethnic and generational factors in common. They are a product of this accomodation. Their is no structure, discpline, optimism, faith in the country and most of all fear of authority. Why? Because as a nation we have lost the moral authority to defend our streets from rioters. We have become utterly corrupted by our own greed and deceit. The police shoot a man with a gun in Tottenham and we don't know who to believe becuse the police reflect the weakness and corruption of the society in which they serve.

The riots are disgusting and appalling but a part of me hope they will shed light on the huge contradictions, if not outright lies at the heart of our society.

Seems like a perfectly reasonable comment to me. I would consider myself a lefty liberal type, but it is parents who bring up children and not the state - sure, there are lots of factors that contribute to this.

People blame things like teachers not having enough authority and the lack of corporal punishment etc, but millions of people have grown up in the same society and not become 'feral' or whatever. I didn't misbehave (much) when I was younger, cos I knew I'd get a bollocking from my parents - I didn't want that. It probably starts young, like I hate going to the supermarket and there's a small child running amok, but the parents can't be d to go after them and, at best, will just bark at them without explaining why they shouldn't do such things.

I'm 27 now, I would not be compelled to commit a crime because, as well as getting a criminal record etc, my mam would give us a right talking to... plus my friends would think I was a ****. I guess people involved in riots, broadly feel they don't have any prospects to care about and a criminal record wouldn't make a difference, their parents wouldn't care and they don't have any good 'support networks'.

A Salfordian woman they spoke to on BBC News yesterday wound me up, saying something like 'the kids are viewed as scrotes, so they act like scrotes'. If kids are viewed as scrotes, the parents should be telling them to show those people wrong - not being blase and using it as an excuse for being too lazy to be a good parent. Obviouisly, easier said than done when this is all compounded by lack of local unemployment and massive economic disparities brought in by globalisation and greed and a general lack of social capital that pervades society.

One of the more disturbing comments I heard during this was from a young rioter who commented "we're just getting back at rich people who own rich businesses". She seemed to think this provided her with a justification for trashing a corner shop.

Its bad enough if young people see themselves as living in a different world from the wealthy. But when they view small businessmen and women as being legitimate targets it makes me wonder just how low are their aspirations?

She did make me laugh though with her other comment "its all the fault of the conservatives.........or whoever is the government".

I'm not going to start arguing figures with an accountant Adey (suspect I might lose, somehow

, or get lost in the 'logic') BUT I [isuspect[/i you're going on percentages and by the naughties there was so little industry left that if they'd got rid of the lot (100%) it would still have involved fewer jobs being lost than in the eighties. Not that I've much time for Blair; just another thatcherite with better presentational skills.

Mind you, I've always had a down on Thatcher. Probably because the one period in my life when I didn't have a job was when I was when I spent 13 weeks as one of 'Maggies Millions', before inevitably moving from manufacturing into the service sector. Mind you I have to say I was happy to get the job, any job, as there were times I thought I was really going to struggle to find anything. Well, find anything paying more than a few coppers an hour, there were thousands of those.......

The eighties (and the blessed Margaret) also seemed to be at the root of so many bad things, lack of social cohesion along with vast changes in family life as many struggled to manage "getting on their bikes" to find a job and running a family, and even tentacles extending to the present day with the recent banking crisis, the seeds of which were sowed by the deregulation under Thatcheromics (or was it Reagonomics? I forget which) when all the checks, balances and robust controls which demanded certain standards in the industry were swept aside. "Getting rid of red tape" was how it was described IIRC ( a phrase which seems to be being brought out to play again)though as the 'con tricks', dodgy dealings and hedge funds would have remained illegal under the old regime, maybe the 'red tape' might have prevented feral bankers from running amok, looting our finances and destroying the economy with their 'sub-prime' money making (ha- ha) schemes .

Of course every government since has had the chance to bring back the controls but has failed to do so, so they are to blame too, though I would argue they are not to blame as much as the author.
I think I need to visit my analyst

They should bring back the cane to teach disipline. And bring back EMA. No need for the looting or riots tbh. No justified reason anyway. Personally they should deport any rioters who arn't British. Then reposses the stolen goods from their homes. Then reposses the stolen goods from the rioting Brits and force them to pay a £400 fine.

laughing at the fact that the police have started rounding the rioters up,kicking in doors to arrest the scum,lets see how they like it !!

A family have been handed an eviction notice. Their 18 year old son was rioting and his mum and dad and siblings have been kicked out haha justice

So the local council will now be obliged to home them? Not sure it's anything of a 'victory' to be honest, especially for the family next door when they move in.

Fair enough it gives people a chance to stick a few fingers up and say "serves 'em right", and yes, for all I know, they may well be the most obnoxious bunch of scrotes the world has ever seen, but knee jerk reactions such as these are rarely the best way of dealing with things in my experience.

Does that not just move the problem somewhere else?