He's still a young player and has plenty of ability, particularly going forward. It's true to say that defence isn't his forté, but there is no reason why that couldn't be fixed, though his form has dropped a bit recently. Form of course is temporary..

If he apologizes and grovels and earns the trust of his team-mates again then I would have him back based on what he brings in attack. He is a defensive liability but then again so is Sammut. But he would have to earn his place in the team and prove he will give it 110% effort for the cause.

Chevs seems to be abit liable to the rash challenge that he come off worse with and a few missed tackles

I think my point still stands, the players agents have more influence than you think, and if Elliot didn't want to play for Dewsbury, there are easy ways to get round this.

As for making the childish remarks regarding me making "serious aspersions", I don't think anything I have said is either a million miles away from the truth. If a player (not just Whitehead btw) didn't want to play in and fixture, it easy to fool the medical staff, they can only diagnose based on the symptoms. Medical experts would be stupid to ignore a players symptoms (even if they are false).

I think i'm going to pick my future discussions with care, as some individuals are more interested in quoting (and sometimes misquoting) posts, just so that they can happily look down their nose and show all that they are 'The Man'!

But you don't know what I think. It would seem obvious that like any other job, some agents will be good, some crap, and depending on the player may have more or less influence.


But who are you argiung with, I already said players are not slaves, they cannot be forced to do anything.


You know children that have conversations about "serious aspersions"? What, in between neurosurgery classes? Maybe there's hope for Gove's education system yet, then. But yes, it was widely reported that a report as to his mental state had been received and the evidence (whatever it was) had been accepted by the Bulls.

The Bulls stated:

You don't know what those reasons are, nor do I as they have never been released, and the speculation may or may not be on the money; you have no knowledge about it, and specifically you have no information to contradict this statement, yet you do. That's what I would consider childish.


It really isn't. I don't know where you get this idea from, but the Bulls have access to very experienced sports doctors, physios even consultants, and you are wrong to take them all for gullible mugs.


You seem more over-sensitive than Violet Elizabeth Bott, but I just discuss points of interest to me, I don't "look down my nose" at you any more than I give a flying fart whether you choose to discuss or not, it's entirely up to you.

One is picked for his defence, one isn't.

Yawn!

Sorry but that's b*llox imo.

Elliot is an attacking,try scoring forward.You know the try scoring stats don't lieicon_smile.gif))

Re the tackling stats,maybe Elliot has put himself on the line more than others therefore of course he will miss more tackles than someone else who is "hiding" himself away.

What doesn't lie is the amount of tries Elliot has scored and try scoring passes on top of that.

I am sure he will be successful at his next club.Maybe the fans there will value him more.

Let's see how we go.

One is 86kg the other is 106kg and over 6ft, he shouldnt be missing the number of tackles he does even if he is a try scoring 2nd row, tackling is the most basic skill you learn.

He isnt the best but we have others in our team who have worse tackle stats, think our problem goes beyond just the individual we have 4 players in the top 8 for missed tackle, CW, JS ,EW, DA. Cant just be coincidence.

The fans at his next Club will value him more till he throws an issy fit or his agent tells him to throw one.

Could you post a link to back up that Elliot has thrown an issy fit?

Or is it just in your head?

BTW,Keith was a GOD.

Sorry just to placate you in it`s in my head. I should have said his new admirers will love him and still love him when he decides the new team aint good enough for him.

More like it!

If Whitehead wants to play at a top club, get rep games and win things he'll need to realise that to be a top forward he needs his defence to be as good as his attacking play. He can't just think of himself as an attacking player. It's not good enough.

The best second rowers we've had were good in attack and defence e.g. Fairbank, Gartner, Peacock, Forshaw. They won trophies and got recognised for rep games. Is Whitehead anywhere near those players? Nope.

Whitehead can tackle,end of.One set of stats and people writing him off as some kind of powder puff forward.

OK,just ask yourself this,how come most players tackled harder,ran stronger and faster and for longer when being coached by Peter Fox?Why was that?

Motivation/Inspirational

I can't see any of that at the moment from Cummins et al.

IMO I would like to see someone in charge who can inspire players to fulfill all their potential and yes,play ABOVE themselves.Elliot,for whatever reason,has not progressed under Cummins so a parting of the waves will be best for all concerned as he is ambitious and he must feel that the present management is not helping him move forward,for whatever reason.

As I have said quite a few times,he is not rated by many on here and has suddenly been labelled a bad tackler etc etc,so you should be glad to see the back of him and if he is so bad then you won't be expecting a fee surely.

Let's see how we go.

Saying "end of" at the end of a statement doesn't make it true. Don't recall anyone saying he's powder puff either. His technique isn't good enough though. Only a blind person would disagree. The stats back up what I see when he plays and falls off tackles.



You can't question Fox's motivation skills but he was a great coach who had proved himself long before he got to Northern and was way more experienced than Cummins. Cummins is in his first year in the job so you should cut him some slack, especially give the circumstances. Did you really expect us to be doing as well as we did last year with a far weaker squad? Even Fox's teams did worse when they lost key players, it's the same now!



I think you blaming the performance of the team on Cummins ignores the fact that we have a much weaker squad. I'd say in the circumstances we're doing alright. You say that Elliott for whatever reason has not progressed under Cummins. Well he wasn't doing any better under Potter. He 's a good attacker but he misses too many tackles.

If we're not improving in a couple of years under Cummins then it's maybe time for a change. I think you have to look at the context though.



Of course we'd expect something for him. He's a good attacker. He's just not as perfect as you think he is.

His tackling stats for the last 3 years ('11, '12 and '13) have him at 1, 4 and 1 for missed tackles in SL while only appearing once ('12) in the top 20 tacklers so it's not like the missed tackles is a new problem or his work rate in defence is so high that the missed tackles is compensated for by the tackles made overall.
However, even though his form appears to me to be lacklustre this year amongst the Bulls players he's 2nd for try assists, our highest metre maker in the forwards, has made the 4th highest number of tackles and 3rd in tackles burst so he's got talent.
He's also got the 2nd highest number of errors, behind Sammut, which can either be an indicator he's error prone or just that he's trying more risky stuff which doesn't come off.
Some good, some bad and he appears to have stalled somewhat, but he's certainly not a bad player and he did sign a long term contract so why shouldn't the Bulls receive a fee.

Bullseye,

Elliot is in his early 20's and guess what he has another 3/4 years before he reaches his prime.
Yes Cummins is in his coaching infancy and also has a lot to learn so to expect him to be able to motivate a small squad with no money available was too big an ask even before the season started and is precisely why an older head with experience should have been installed to guide us through this consolidation period.We shouldn't have thrown in Cummins just because he was cheaper imo anyway and I have said the same before a ball was passed this season.
So Yes I will cut Cummins some slack coz its not his fault,but the same also applies to Elliot,who,for all his faults has scored plenty of tries for a forward with many try scoring passes as well,in a poor side.To harp on and on about 1 stat is starting to sound as if its some kind of personal hate campaign.You don't rate him so you will be glad when he's gone,so why go on and on?Beats me.

The main reason posters harp on and on about his defensive frailties is IMHO they (I) feel let down by a Bradford lad who not long ago signed a long contract tying him to the club and stating this is where I want to be the Bulls are the only club I want to be at (or words to that effect).

Yes,so you would think that something occurred which has made him take this course?

OK,imo,I don't rate/trust the people who are in charge at the moment and I certainly don't think they have longevity.

"No marquee signings" as an announcement sets alarm bells ringing to me.Is that the way to boost interest/support?Many will say,ok,I'll start paying you my cash when you put some class on the field.
Sounds like a sure way to depress support/interest for next year.No,I don't like the way its going.At least in 1964,when they reformed they got financial backing and put some excellent players on the field which the public responded to in their thousands and is when I first started going to Odsal.
Maybe Caisley and his backers would have had more financial clout?icon_smile.gif))Never say never.

I was there in 1964 like you but I can`t remember any Marquee signings then, the majority of the players were gifted from the other clubs, mainly players who had had their best years like Wilkinson and Smales. or journey men.
The club in its present financial position would be off its trolley to make marquee signings and end up where we were last season, I don`t think the rest of RL would rally round like they did last year or back in 64.
Why don`t you rate or trust those in charge?

I would prefer him to be honest and say what he has, otherwise we would all be waiting for the announcement that never came. This would be more damaging to the person that made the initial claim and we would be quick to get on the managers back. FC is currently operating within certain financial constraints, and he's letting everyone know what challenges he has.

As for Caisley, if he has/had more financial clout than OK, I don't understand why he didn't make an offer for the club. He had his chance!!

I think it's a bit early to say what the new guys in charge are like. I've heard good and bad about them so far. One things for sure, they were the only ones to come up with the goods and buy the club out of admin so they're the only show in town.

On Whitehead I said only the day before he put in his transfer request that I thought he wasn't improving and that he might be better elsewhere at some stage. That said, I'm surprised he wants to leave so soon after he signed up to such a long deal in 2012 when the situation at the club was much more uncertain. I don't think it's down to Cummins, I hear that the players are fully behind the coach. It seems to me like Whitehead's been tapped up.

As for marquee signings we can't afford them. I thought that was obvious.

Williamson
Ambrum
Terry Pryce
Berwyn Jones
Johnny Rae
Stockwell
Diabeara
Wrigglesworth
Smales
Brooke
Roberts

Just to name a few.

Why don't I rate/Trust those in charge?I have this horrible feeling that they were born to fail and put offs like no marquee signings and the Elliot saga and Jay Willey pulling out, do nothing to change my view.It doesn't instill confidence,let's put it that way.Run correctly,with financials in place the Bulls franchise is worth a lot,at the moment,imo,that "WORTH" is being devalued.To what end,we shall see.

Lionel Williamson,George Ambrum,Terry Price, Berwyn Jones,Bak Diabara, Geoff Wrigglesworth and Ken Roberts were not playing for Northern when they re-formed in 1964. They came later when the club had got back on it`s feet and could afford to gamble.
If you are going to state facts to back up your argument make sure they are correct.