To be quite honest although friday was a bit poor, i cant see a problem with us challenging Wigan and Wire over the coming weeks as their form seems to be up and down at the mo, that being said i can imagine them seeing us as an easy 2 points (which in all fairness they should) but i can sense an upset or two in the coming weeks

Its a long shot but its a shot. Plus youve got to remember you dont have to finish in position 1-4. The 4th and 5th placed teams at the end of the middle 8 play each other in a final one off decider, so you only have to be in the top 5 of the 8 team mini league to be, at worst, 80 minutes from SL, and then why couldnt we be the club that raises their game for a one-off occasion?

I know the situations are a little different between now and 2010, but it was often said that it was a big mistake to stick by McNamara while we were on that horrible run of 11 losses. (I know he left and St Hilaire took over for a few games)

But at the moment we're on 5 straight league defeats with no realistic/predictable win in perhaps the next 5 or 6 league games. Last season we had a run of 6 straight defeats which extended to 1 win in 10.

My point is, with a heavy heart, should the board take a serious look at replacing Cummins?

edit: the Wakefield message board are already getting very twitchy and want Agar out, but money seems to be the stumbling block for paying him off... for the time being at least anyway.

I'm not following this ... if the likelihood is we realistically will not win any of the next few games, what difference would replacing Cummins make, apart from we would lose the self-same games under a different coach?

Nobody knows for certain, all it could take is a fresh idea or two to tweak things, i.e. perhaps a subtle change to defensive patterns or a shift in balance in training between x and y, and then we could find our form. Of course it's only speculation, but further down the line it becomes hindsight.

Yes, we're low on numbers and Francis has dealt with shiite no other coach has but who's to say he's really the right man? At what point does it become too late to do anything?

There's too much at stake to leave it to "what if". Some may see it as knee-jerk, or changes for changes sake, and of course anyone is welcome to because it's a forum, but I really think drastic changes are needed. The minimum should be another assistant to shake up our defence. However, I'm beginning to think more changes are needed.

What do you think FA?

Sacking Cummins when the reason we're in this mess is none of his doing is a bit harsh.

Since last year we've lost Lulia, Sammut, Scruton, L'Estrange, Langley, Whitehead, Bateman etc all of whom would walk into the current team. Cummins would have kept the lot if he could. Not to mention bloody Carvell and Winterstein.

As far as I can see Sir Peter Fox is retired and I don't know of any other coaches available who could do better job than FC at the moment.

They have been at Agar from day one, not just recently. If Wayne Bennett, assisted by Tim Sheens & Craig Bellamy, was in charge at Belle Vue (sic) & Wakey were on a 20 game unbeaten run they would want him out. They can't help it, it's an illness with doctors & drugs & sh[ii[/it.

I think given the unprecedented shiite he has been dealt, and his responses to it, it would be hugely unfair and a real kick in the bollox to thank Cummins by giving him the bullet. I would give him the rest of the season on general principles and as only a bastarrd would not.

Trouble is that in business and sport it is more often the bastarrds that do best.

Cummins has been far more impressive than i could have predicted, and it is true that he has had little or no control over a number of factors, and in team unity, dealing with adversity etc. I suppose no-one could have done better but nevertheless there are a number of things that are in his remit and which he COULD influence, which have not been affected by the calamitous events surrounding him and those include
* our endemic propensity to give up miles of territory by poor technique, dropped ball, poor pass selection etc.
* our endemic concession of serial predictable penalties
* our erratic defensive standard, and frequently shambolic and disorganised attempts at defending (Sure you could talk about getting defensive coach but isn't that the same thing as saying Cummins himself can't coach a decent defence?)
* our tactical kicking, which overall is amongst the worst in the league, especially last tackle plays, especially in the opposition half.

I know we have lost plenty of important players but while with us they all regularly contributed to all of the above, which has been a feature of our play for a long time with little sign of improvement.

So if I were the owner, his job would be safe for the season, but that's perhaps because I'm too soft, and think in fairness he's earned the right to have a chance to show he can improve things on the field now things are (maybe) starting to at last settle down. But I'm pretty sure that with most hard-headed basstard businessmen he would be out the door, in a Koukash-stylee "just do it" kind of way on the basis we don't have the luxury of time.

Leeds - 51
Saints - 50
Wigan - 42
Warrington - 38
Hudds - 34
Cas - 28
Salford - 26
Hull FC - 24
Widnes - 22
Catalan - 20
Hull kr - 15
Wakefield - 14
Bradford - 10
London - 0

Nope I can't make us stay up even using the predictor thingy. I'll readily admit that rather than red, amber, and black tinted glasses I try to save my own heartache by viewing things through glasses covered in sewage. By that definition and the calculations above I reckon even with full 6 points re-instated we'd STILL be in a relegation dogfight.

I agree, I couldn't sack cummins on principle this year, he has been potteresqe in going above the call of duty with the crap he's had to deal with. But there are things that need to improve on the training pitch clearly and quickly that as you say have very little to do with money, and this needs to translate onto the pitch for us to have any chance.

The 17 players that took to the field on Friday and will on Thursday might not be the best 17 in the league but they are all good super league level pro players, we should be able to coach out some of the basic errors and penalties that make the game so much harder for us than it should be. Ulitimately the owner would have to think would parachuting in someone like the recently available Noble bring any more points than Cummins over the rest of the season? Im not sure it would at this stage, but he probably wouldn't do any worse so an owner more in the Koucash style might have been tempted to bring his own man in and take a shot.

But, it does still show that the position isn't [icompletely[/i hopeless, and getting (say) 2 points back would at least make it very interesting!

I always thought Cummins was too soft as a player to make it as a coach. He's certainly made me re-assess my opinion. Keeping a squad together has been a remarkable achievement. Until he has had a bit of time with a settled squad & club it would be an understatement to say it would be harsh to get rid now.

This

He certainly seems to have instilled a sense of unity amongst the players we have left. Franny has been involved in coaching for a long time now, he even went across to Aus for a time to further his coaching credentials. I would certainly hope that during all this time he has learnt enough to be able to coach a bunch of players into a cohesive team.
It's just unfortunate that he's never had the solid footing on which to make an impression.

I'm firmly of the belief that had we gone into this season and retained our original squad, we would be comfortable with respect to relegation. Perhaps even making a case for an 8th place finish.
Unfortunately things didn't work out like that, and I'm anxious now that FC will never properly have the chance to show just how good a coach he really is. At least, not with Bradford in the top division.
People worry that if we're relegated, it will be our players that are poached by other clubs. I say there's every chance someone will snap up FC as well.

I think we've shown enough against HKR,Widnes and Salford to say we've a chance of winning games and on that basis I can't see the point of changing coach right now. The influx of signings hasn't arrived although FC reckons things will happen after Easter/CC games.

We are obviously favourites for relegation but the single biggest factor in our favour is Wakefield who appear to have got worse after signing Scruton and Sammut. I know we're not meant to comment on others outcomes but how are they going to get 12/14 points. I can totally see why we may only get to 6 but from what I've seen there's 2 leagues now that Le Cats have woken up. Wakey, London and us, then the rest. It wouldn't shock me if the only teams any of the 3 beat were each other. Of the 3 the one marginally more likely to beat an injury ravaged side from higher up the league is the Bulls (just.

I genuinely think 8 points could see us survive.

I also think he should be given the season after the work he has done. I don't see anyone obvious to replace him with. I have to say that Powell at Cas has done a fantastic job and would take him but that is very unlikely. So, I would stick with Franny but if I was Green I would let LSH go and replace him with someone like Morrison or another strong forward. Most clubs have a pair of coaches. Franny seems to be doing everything.

It's easy to talk about changing the coach but that assumes there is someone better available, and that we could afford them. So to help FC it would seem more practical to bring in a few more players to the squad, maybe bring in a few more backroom staff to free FC to spend more time on the training ground.
But FC and the players do need to tighten up on the pitch as so far we are gifting way too much to the opposition this season and that is one luxury we certainly cannot afford.

Just to pick up and run with a couple of points made;

Yes, Wakefield are struggling, possibly because they are sticking by an underperforming coach, I question whether we should "get the jump on them" and make a change first.

Secondly, Powell is doing a cracking job at Castleford, and is doing so because the Tigers got rid of Millward.

Lastly, I don't want to get rid of Cummins, but I don't want to see the side relegated even more. And while there's a lot of love for Francis from the fans, it really could be a case of the nice guy finishing last.

All I'm advocating is that we learn from our past mistakes - boy do we have a lot to learn from - and remember how we stuck by McNamara. A more experienced coach to at least offer advice to Cummins should be an option to seriously consider, maybe there's something an older head would see that Francis can't right now.

You've answered the bit in bold with the sentence before. Loan deals aside do you assume there are better players available that we can afford?!

All in all, we're most definitely hamstrung by stigma as much as anything when it comes to anyone coming in. *sigh*

There are alarming similarities between FC and Mcbanana, not least we don't seem tough enough. However, given the resources at his disposal and the utter chaos he's dealt with it seems a wholly premature comparison.

I wanted Powell to be given the Bulls job but the emotion and the circumstances pushed it Fc's way and but for the mayhem we'd be further up the table, no question.

Whists it too soon in my view who would you go with. Mark Aston?

You are right "better" players either aren't available or unaffordable - but I mean't to suggest that just having a few extra "average" guys in the squad would provide injury cover, put a bit of pressure on for places

Good question, even though some see him as a dinosaur I'd consider Brian Noble (current availability is a mystery). John Kear pokes his nose out as someone who can possibly breathe live into us. I'd love to see super Glenn as an assistant, or Mat Calland too but that could be just because he's an ex-player I thought of him. I can't really include the NRL merry-go-round as I don't know who's available barring Matthew Elliott and Cronulla man. There's definitely a few more I haven't thought of. Any of these would probably cost a pretty penny, money we probably don't have, but just because I can't definitively say who would fix our season doesn't mean I can't think a change could be a good thing!

Yeah, I think it's fair to ask who, in their right mind, and we're talking about players as good, or better, than we already have, is going to give up a steady job elsewhere to come to Odsal right now? For a while, at least until stability has begun to be the norm, we'll have to face the fact that players are going to think long and hard before committing to the Bulls.

I agree in theory, I know we need 2 or 3 more players, props in particular, but adding average to average may not solve the problem. They may still miss the same tackles, give away the same penalties and still run the same poor lines that the current lads do. A change further up could ([ucould[/u) improve things for the current squad and make things that bit easier for the new recruits we need.