Please be aware "you" are not representative of the Bradford Bulls and their supporters, you are a minor small idiotic faction. That is all.

I'm taking it you was on that train?

I don't understand how someone can seriously condone said behavior. Granted, at festivals etc. it's 'the norm' but when travelling on a train, or walking in public, it should not be acceptable.

Just because your in a group, it doesn't mean it's okay. I very much doubt you would stand there alone on the train and sing the same song aloud?

I can understand why someone would class this as harassment or intimidation. I, for one, would not like my wife, daughters to be in the same situation.

And Terrace Singer, I'm embarrassed you support the same club as I!

I was on it until Bramley, and I am not condoning it. It's a puerile, juvenile "song" but it isn't one that in those circumstances I'd class as being intimidating, aggressive or harassing. She was on a train, with lots of other people, not just those "singing" - it wasn't even being directed at her, if everyone was so meek no-one would ever set foot outside of their houses.

You're more cornered on a train than most places. If some people on the receiving end are happy to laugh it off then that's their prerogative. However, it doesn't make the discomfort felt by other people any less real. Those Bulls fans on the train had no right to assume that the people they directed their songs at would take it as a joke.

I think analogies with racism are appropriate - I don't think we have eliminated racism by any means, but you now have a situation where any racists know that if they shout that kind of abuse among Bulls fans, someone is going to have a pop at them. In fact I've never heard any sexist abuse at a game, probably because the dolts in question are too chicken to do it on terraces where every third person or more is female.

It was wrong. It won't be the worst thing that happened to the West Yorkshire that night, it is true (sadly). But it was wrong and it shouldn't be laughed or shrugged off.

I am still not sure if you are being serious. Are you really saying that a few hundred (drunk?) blokes chanting, as a pack "Get your tits out for the lads" is not intimidating to a single woman?
Of course it is.

In the hundreds of times I have heard that "song" being chanted I've yet to hear of any woman claiming to be intimidated by it, most ignore it or tell the chanters to "f*** off" - it was being chanted in public on a busy train - if she'd been the only woman on an empty carriage with the same thing happening then yes, the situation's different.

I asked the two women I sit next to at work to read that blog, one said she should "get a grip" and the other said that. without knowing the person themselves it was hard to judge.

I fully realise I'm not as "right on" as the majority of rlfans posters, but I seriously cannot believe this silly "chant" that has been aired so often over the last twenty years or so can cause so much consternation, I can't say any more than that on the matter.

Mmmm, ok, lets turn it round a bit, say you got on the train wearing, for example a Bulls shirt, and a train full of Leeds fans (no offence intended to any - it's just for illustrative purposes!) started chanting AT YOU. Would you not feel at all intimidated? Or would you just tell them all to **** off?

If that was me id just laugh and take it as a bit of banter whether in a bulls shirt or not, dont think id tell them to **** off tho ha ha

Ok I've just edited the original version of this post. Lets just say the woman who posted the blog about the abuse, finishing with the line "I dont think I will be that sad if Bradford dont get a buyer actually!", annoyed me a little.

Similar things have happened plenty of times, on Friday I had 5 people on the Carnegie Terrace aiming everything they chanted right at me once they realised I was a Bradford supporter. Last October I was in a bar full of German football supporters in Istanbul who all started singing at me when they realised I was English.

I dunno, maybe because I suffered a lot of real intimidation and abuse (physical & verbal) when I was younger as a result of my background I am a bit more thick-skinned and have different lines when it comes to this sort of thing.

Intimidation and verbal (and physical) abuse is wrong there is no words/actions that justify it. Please don’t even try.

I don't see anyone justifying intimidation & abuse, the debate is whether things are/should be construed as such.

I don't see much room for debate.

If a trainload of Bulls fans good-naturedly targeted a Leeds fan, that's ok. If it starts getting not so good-natured, it becomes not ok. If there was a longstanding history of violence from Bulls fans towards Leeds fans then that lone Leeds fan could be forgiven for feeling intimidated.

GYTOFTL is unfunny and unoriginal. Worse, it adds, even if in what you see as a minor way, to the toxic stew of misogyny that is still with us. And when the people doing this are self-identifying as Bulls fans, it falls on us to either stand by it or stand against it.

I appreciate where you're coming from Asim and I appreciate that you likely will have had more hassle at the hands of strangers than I and others perhaps have. But I don't think that changes things - the woman was intimidated by needless, unpleasant, behaviour and I'm not comfortable with making t her problem rather than ours.

I'm struggling with the implication that this sort of disgraceful behaviour =#4080FF(" the train was heaving and the carriage was full with people standing, well men mainly, as she tried to get through they all (like over 100) started chanting “Get your tits out, get your tits out” as she tried to get her way to the door and off the train."icon_wink.gif should simply be brushed off and tolerated, which is what is being said. So a hundred blokes can chant sexual songs at a woman struggling to get through them, and she is supposed to take it all in good part, and view it as just one of those things?

I find the suggestion both completely unacceptable and pretty sad. Any person should be free to go about their daily business unmolested by morons and certainly not reduced to a piece of meat for some idiot to examine and comment on their physical attributes.

The whole thing is just a sad continuation of the power dynamic of men historically exerting power and control over women, and needs to be seen as such. If this woman was the wife of Victor Klitschko, walking with him down the train, and any two of these morons were their on their own, why would they not then chant "GYTOFTL" to her? Because they fscking well know that it ain't the amusing harmless bonhomie it's being made out, but crass and unacceptable behaviour, which they only engage in because they know the woman is powerless, and would not dream of doing if the balance of power was on her side. And that's what's wrong with it.

Is Victor Klitschko one of Wladimir and Vitali's younger brothers?

Yeah I wouldn't mess with one of those boys.

Assuming the post reflects her genuine feelings, then it was construed as harassment. Whether the morons directing at her think that is OK is immaterial. She feels intimidated, therefore she is being intimidated.

Does anyone know if this was the so called fat dogs and their entourage?

5 pages of debate on this, good grief...

A bunch of young lads who had too much to drink over stepped the mark, not to be condoned but no-one was physically hurt and i don't think the lady in question will be mentally scarred for life!

Lets get over it...

Get over it, aka do nothing to stop it happening again?

Abuse can be verbal/mental as well as physical - the lady in question was upset enough to take time to write to a blog about it....... how do you know she didn't contemplate doing herself physical harm as a result?

FYI what is a forum for if not debate?

What would be a permissible length of debate?


Who? Nobody on this forum has anything to "get over". The people who have something to "get over" are the two victims, it's sad that in the 21st c. they should have to, and a shame that you are prepared to dismiss it as 'boys will be drunk boys" high jinks.

"boys will be drunk boys" who said that? stop twisting words you're becoming famous for it..

Oddly enough, the reference was to something you said:

"A bunch of young lads who had too much to drink"

Maybe you have short term memory loss?

Thankyou for quoting correctly, does it ease the boredom?