His appreciation of the rules of the game are inconsistent at best but the performance of the touch judges was even worse. I don't understand what their roles are currently?hull's last try should have been chalked off due to sa's obvious infringement against the defending Adam o'brien. To change and maintain a running line whilst putting yr shoulder against the defender is against the rules and how the touch judge was unaware when he was stood right beside them is embarrassing for our game. Hicks control of the ten metre line is pitiful, he was constantly gesturing for both teams line to come back the full ten with both teams ignoring him to very little consequence. He needs to man up and make a call for repeated infringements, for the repeated failure of the team not making the defensive ten every tackle he should penalise twice then look at putting someone in the sin bin, potentially the captain, will make teams understand the impact of being consistently offside.

This has to be some sort of record? Get the changing rooms flooded Jimmy

So, all the ball has to do is achieve 10 metres forward travel in the field of play. It doesn't have to land. And if it did have to land then it would be illegal to catch a kickoff (you'd have to wait for it to land first) and that would be really stupid.

Second, a defender can't deliberately touch it before it has travelled the 10, or that's a pen. too.

The refs in the Championship are way worse than him - Stokes , Turley etc and Jamie Bloem refs at the Championship level he has officiated Fax Games....

Yeh, every official in the country is unmitigated shiit, and you're the expert, OK we get it.

Speaking to fans at games I believe most fans actually do appreciate that overall the officials do a very difficult job pretty well, but it is certainly true that these sort of internet forums attract a constant stream of hyperbolic whingers. It's the modern day equivalent of the radio phone in, they always just attract loud-mouthed pontificating spittle-dribblers and ignorasnt morons who would abuse an official whatever he did.

Rational discussion and criticism of specific instances and decisions is fine, and i am not trying to suggest refs aren't up for discussion, quite the contrary, everything is, but what I query is the huge disproportion in the heads of some who simply obsess about the officiating in games, and probably get so wound up about it, they don't actually wacth much of the game itself at all, as they're too busy raising their blood pressure to near explosion point, griping at what they see as the inevitable procession of ref howlers, and all 9of course) against their team.

On forums for a few leaping in to slather the ref is all they can't wait to do. Do they watch the whole game like that? Don't they actually want to talk about the play, their team, how it performed, what they did?

But it is really ridiculous to (for example) accuse, say, Silverwood or indeed young Hicks of being a rubbish ref. The guys have reached the top level, refereed thousands of hours to get there, and have the respect of most fans and players. To say a ref made a mistake, or didn't allegedly police the 10 properly is one thing. To say he is crap is just matical nonsense.

As for lower league refs - like in any job where there are progressively harder jobs, how else do you suggest refs cut their teeth - on a fscking Playstation?

TBF FA Faxfan doesn't claim to be an expert. I've a few friends that follow teams in the Championship and Championship 1 who say that officials at those levels do get more things wrong than at SL level. This wasn't expressed in any kind of rant or anything, just a sober opionion based on watching rugby at different levels.

We both know it's a difficult, thankless task.

I was replying to Faxfan but the main diatribe isn't specifically aimed at him, but at the perennial ref-bashers and baiters that start endless threads immediately after pretty much every match.

It seems reasonable that less experienced refs would get more things wrong than more experienced refs, but one thing I would bet a LOT of money is that, in any given game, if it was properly recorded and analysed, the majority of decisions that any given ref critic complained about would end up having in fact been correct.

Don't get me wrong, I love a shout at the ref, and the linesman on the stand side, as much as the next man, it's part of the game experience isn't it, but the number of times on the video afterwards I've had to concede the ref was right, or arguably right, far exceeds the times he was palpably wrong.

But don't get me started on video refs ...

What gets me about Hicks is that all he does at PTB is wave his arms for defending team to get onside but NEVER looks to check that they have done so.After a couple of PTB's liberties begin to be taken. But so what, guess it doesnt really matter. Does it.

I think that's pretty general, with most refs, at the PTB.

In fact, it was taken to a new low [height? at Cas on Sunday when Mr Stokes didn't bother blowing offside against Luke Dorn when, at a Bulls PTB, nine metres out, he walked in front of the referee. I don't mean he was 'in front' in the general context [most defenders were that, but he actually wandered, directly in front, in the direct, front-on eyeline of the referee. Dorn's position was such as to obscure the view of any possible knock on by us, from the referee - and he still didn't blow.

Seeing Dorn there [he was within ten, so definitely interfering, play went the other way, when we really ought to have run at him and forced the issue. Of course, a couple of PTBs later, a Cas one, he blew us offside and Clark scored his long distance try...the difference between being switched on or not, I guess.

Incidentally, I fully accept that the Bulls take the usual liberties with this - as do all clubs - but I've never seen anything so blatant before. This was just thumbing the nose and I'm still amazed he got away with it.

So allegedly Hicks "never" checks whether a team is offside at any PTB.

You see, it's just this sort of OTT hyperbolic nonsense that irritates me. if this were anything even close to the truth, do you seriously suggest he would have a job as a professional referee?

I too have seen cases often where many of a team are offside but offside is not blown. That would be back to the perennial argument as to whether to either penalise like a maniac until they "get the lesson" or let the game flow unless the offside gains the team an advantage etc.

Clearly, currently one standing order to the refs is to above all let the game flow, as the number of penalties, especially in critical games, is usually quite low. On balance I prefer it the way it is.

My irritation with the PTB is the default setting of the refs to penalise the defending side.

Several times during a game, the attacking player takes a couple of steps forwards off the mark, the defending player tries to hold his ground at the mark. This then generates "messing around at the PTB". The ref (majority of the time) will penalise the defender rather than the player who has walked off the mark and caused the problem in the first place. Good gamesmanship I suppose, seeing the opportunity for either 1) a fast PTB or 2) a penalty. No downside for the attacking team.

I laugh at scrums though when a team needs a breather and they "forget" that 6 men go in the scrum and the ref has to remind them...

100% agree about the walking forward - why should the defender concede an extra couple of metres?

I disagree with FA about giving penalties.

Players are professionals. They 'bend' the rules because they believe there is an advantage to be gained by doing so, penalising them disabuses them of that perception. It only needs the referee[s to say, "go offside and I'll penalise you", and then TO DO SO and the professionals will soon decide there is no point. It's just like all the other laws in life, drivers break the speed limit because they feel there is little chance of being caught - and largely they are right.

It's sad that the RFL, who have no concept of the game of rugby league make and up hold the rules. The game has moved on since it's conception and the drafting of the rules. The whole rule book should be burnt (along with Red Hall) and a new modern rule book written (posted on the internet, available from Amazon). This would take into account the wishes of the players, teams, managers, owners and the fans. All can put forward their ideas to be included (or not included0 in the new rules. I'm sure there will be a deluge of rule changes.

There have been instances of attempts at zero-tolerance refereeing, I seem to recall, and AFAIR none of them went well and all were quietly abandoned.

I think the reason is in the nature of the beast; if it really is zero tolerance then if a player is one inch offside, then it is a penalty. Every time. Players will not (can not) retire 11 metres as that gives too big an advantage to the opposition especially over 80 minutes and so HAVE to be close to the edge which will inevitably lead to glut of penalties in every game - whether the players have "learned their lesson" or not.

Or take holding down or general PTB offences. Clearly there comes a split second where the player has held on too long. Except that split second would not be the same for every person in the ground nor indeed for every ref. How then DO you penalise "every holding down"?

Or players not actually playing the ball at the PTB with their foot. that might be an easier one, and it irritates me to see half hearted wafts while the ball is rolled back, in blatant contravention of the rule, but do you want to see a pen at every or every other PTB?

The last case I remember was an edict that in goal line defence, players had to have both feet on or behind the line. It sounds deceptively simple and easy, so why didn't it work? (I presume we agree it was a failure?)

Now, half the team is never properly onside in goal line defence, but is the overlooking of this a detriment to the game? Would the game be better if in every game the wingers kept getting pinged for stepping forward? I doubt it.

I've never been as disappointed with the level of refereeing as I have over the past 2 seasons.

Yes they do have a tough job, but they appear to have been given instructions to keep play going at all costs (with regards to offside), as a result, they don't enforce as well as they should.

I think the RFL attempt to referee a game like they do in the NRL, but the NRL teams are far more disciplined and tend not to 'toe the line', unlike here. When players in the UK chance their arm, they get away with it, therefore 10 meters quickly becomes 8, which is then the norm in a game.

Also, the ref's seem to go with the 'easy' option when a player knock's on. Too many times I have seen a player lose control of the ball, which then somehow results in the ref blowing for a penalty against the defending team for interfering.

The younger referees seem reluctant to make to tough decisions. To be fair to James Child, he's probably one of the most consistent referees at present, not scared of making the tough calls.

I don't think you can ever get rid of all the indiscretions in a game, it's just asking too much, especially when referees themselves don't always give [iexactly[/i the same interpretation or time to complete something. I do think the PTB could be cleaned up though, it's a pretty objective decision; was the ball played backwards [iby the foot[/i or was it not. Referees are supposed to check if a 'genuine attempt' is made - well, imo, if full time, pro rugby players can't manage to do that correctly 99 times out of 100 then it's prima facie evidence that they're not making a genuine attempt, end of. Heavens sake, the under eights can manage far better than that. In fact seeing the U8s [inot[/i playing the ball correctly is as big a shock as seeing a lot of the pros do it right.

While we all to some degree get on the refs backs we need to remember that it’s the coach that at all clubs instructs players to push things to the limit. Player will try anything to slow down the PTB in defence and those attacking will try and milk a penalty for holding down. It must be a nightmare to officiate it consistently.

The 10m rule made the PTB the be all and end all of dominating the game. If you can get a quick play the ball you dominate. It’s as simple as that. Coaches like Bellamy and Maguire and their protégés have turned dominate the PTB into a fine art. The poor refs have a job on to keep up. In Oz they brought in an extra one to cut down on the wrestlemania. So I can see what a difficult job it is. Especially for one man in the middle.

Yeah, I agree with that bullseye.

The balance between attack and defence is what keeps the fans on the edge of their seats, stray too far one way, or the other, and the game suffers as a spectacle. Coaches will always look for ways of......shall I call it, 'getting the best out of rule changes'; that is their job, I suppose. It is a constant battle between the coaches and the administrators, but I still feel that allowing all the transgressions is a slippery slope though, and if it [ireally is[/i necessary, for maintaining this balance, to allow throwing the ball between the legs, then so be it.

The one thing I'd ask is that these changes in the way the game is played are reflected in the rule book and not accepted as weasely [is there such a word? 'interpretations'. What we have now for instance, with players making a genuine effort [ito pretend[/i to play the ball correctly is just laughable and only allows free ammunition to those who want to do our game down. Or maybe it's a joke and disgrace..

I do agree that any "interpretation should at least nod some acknowledgment to the rule book, even if it then ignores it, and in most of these "interpretations" it does. But not the PTB, because the rule demands that the ball be
"placed" * on the ground;
then
played back with the foot.

If you want to eliminate cheating then simply enforce this exceedingly simple and exceedingly easy to understand rule. It would be the easiest rule in the book, probably. The whole crowd can easily see whether a player places the ball on the ground after regaining his feet. It isn't something debatable.

Then, you can apply your "did he make a genuine effort" to play the ball with his foot, as much as you like. I won't care, because if the ball is correctly placed on the ground, as the rule demands, then the un-co-ordinated player who cannot manage to play it back with the foot gives his team a DISADVANTAGE. He wafts, misses, ball doesn't move: this means it takes EXTRA time for the dummy half to pick it up as they must reach forward for it. So the team gains no advantage.

The reason the "interpretation" is unfair is because ROLLING the ball to the dummy half - a 100% illegal action - as a means of being able to bypass the delay of playing it backwards with the foot, gives the team the advantage of speed and it is both illegal, and a considerable advantage.

So I don't care if you keep the "genuine effort" interpretation. That ain't the problem.

* =#4000BFThe rule actually states the player must "place or drop" the ball to the ground. I assume no referee knows this, as whenever a tackled player drops the ball as he tries to do a PTB, it is always given as a knock-on, but under the rules it is perfectly legal.

I always wondered when "dropping" the ball at the PTB was suddenly ruled as a knock on. I've only seen black and white footage of that!

I agree that if refs enforces the playing of the ball with the foot and no more rolling it'd be easy to see. However it would advantage the defending team. There needs to be a wholesale clean up of the PTB and I think that 2 refs is the only way to do it now that clubs are so well versed in the dark arts of dominating at the ruck. I think refs need to clamp down on the cynical stuff used by defensive teams like:

- Not rolling away fully so the person playing the ball doesn't have clear space and the dummy half can't get into a good position. They're usually just slightly in the way and not too obvious as to attract a penalty but it happens often enough to be clearly a coached technique.
- Staying prone on top of a tackled player looking at the referee for a cue before making any movement.

Same applies to attackers "milking" a penalty by locking in tacklers arms and stuff like that.

Don't mind them rolling it, but if they do, then playing with the foot should in that case be compulsory. I think a proper and legal PTB can be done perfectly fast enough to be fair to both sides.


Agree. All examples though of how nowadays whatever the rule is, coaches and players will find ways to play right up to the boundaries of the rule, to try to gain an advantage. That's what also leads some to have an impression of inconsistency. For example, a player delays the tackle by the manner and speed of getting off. There will come a particular millisecond when the ref has had enough and blows for a pen.

The next set, an opposition player does just the same, but manages to break contact just as that millisecond was about to lead to a pen.

For all intents and purposes, the incidents were identical, yet one is a pen, and one isn't. To a fan of the team being penalised, it looks unfair. Add to the mix that a ref does not time any tackle, in milliseconds or at all; and will vary his informal timing depending on the circumstances even within one match, and you can see it becomes impossible to achieve consistency. Put another way, you can't say that any fan griping at such an individual call doesn't have a case.

Of course, in all tackles are different, and in some, it's possible to get up and off extremely quickly, where in others, the number and angles and tangling up of defenders may genuinely result in a lengthy PTB. So imposing an arbitrary accurate time limit doesn't work.

But if you ignore the time taken, and instead look at the actions of the player subjectively - i.e. however long it took, did he just complete his tackle, and then get off, or has he delayed it, when he could have avoided delaying it?

That would be the ideal rule. Maybe it is the rule, who knows. But that would mean some tackles would be penalised after a very short dleay, and others would have a very long delay, yet not be penalised at all. Which is I think probably where we are today, so maybe the refs are told currently to judge the tackle on its merits, not on the clock. As I say, who knows? They never tell us.

I have to say, this idea of rules being changed on the field but not in the rule book is nothing new. For ooooh, I'll bet for 20 years after the lawmakers decided to allow throwing the ball into the second row, the laws of the game said that, "the ball must be thrown down the centre of the tunnel"...and yes, I have noticed they now throw it to the loose forward..

Year after year they, yes it's always [ithey[/i, come up with, so called new 'interpretations', which are really changes in the laws of the game. A move from, "the ball must be placed or dropped", to "dropping the ball is a knock on", is not a change in 'interpretation', it is a change in the laws of the game and surely anyone who can read can see that.

Well you could always award a bonus point for winning a scrum against the head!

While we are dissecting rules (always a fine pastime) what about this scenario:

Team A kicks off with 30 seconds left on the clock, and a point behind. All team B needs to do is to play those 30 seconds out.

Player B gathers the ball under the posts, meanders forward and falls at the feet of the tacklers, and is as a result tackled with no impact to speak of. The tacklers release him. He does his best WWE "dazed" impersonation, scratches his arrse, and then slowly gains his feet, as if under a 200 kilo pack. He then stands bemused, while he tries to remember what to do, before eventually playing the ball in a manner reminiscent of a nonagenarian with arthritis.

Everybody in the ground is 100% in the abslute knowledge that he is very deliberately and with no subtlety wasting time.

This we see very regularly. Indeed, in any similarly close game this is what you will see. It is our equivalent of soccer players taking the ball into the far corner.

But the rule states:


Note "may" be penalised. But "shall" be penalised.

Now, I entirely understand WHy Player B is doing this, but because it is very specifically against a clear rule, it has to be penalised. And yet never in my life have I seen such a penalty awarded. Has anyone else? It would be great if they suddenly decided to enforce that rule. Jamie Peacock beware!

Nope I haven't FA.