Agree with 2 posts above.

That's my point - whatever you might think was good or bad about RL in the past probably had a combination of a mllion and 1 things behind the circumstances at the time.

No point people re-writing history as a way of supporting their arguments.

I'm just looking ahead from where we are now. My view is that one-up, one-down automatic promotion/relegation between the leagues (which has never been tried in RL) would be a very positive step for the game in this country.

This was mainly down to the great Wigan side of that era, nothing to do with P&R.
Oh, I was there too.

I think a major factor in GB's decline was when football clubs started to place a premium on pace. When I was a kid games teachers would encourage faster kids to play rl rather than football. Then we used to have better backs than the Aussies. That changed around 1980. We can often match the Aussies in the forwards, just don't have any pace in the backs. All the quick kids are directed towards football

While this has some merit you could end up very easily with the promoted teams from 3 successive seasons ending up in the bottom 3 with protection from relegation, hence the fourth from bottom (Salford currently 5 points clear of third bottom) being relegated. Something tells me that wouldn't go down too well. For me the franchise system gives the necessary stability & opportunity to plan for the future.

Didn't produce much stability for Bradford Bulls!

No. Put one-up/one-down automatic promotion/relegation between the leagues in place and leave it there. Ten years later - I predict a much more thriving game in this country in general and also a more stable and successful future for Bradford Bulls.

What makes you predict a thriving game, what factors about P&R will make it thrive?

Can we give the francises 10 years too??

Sorry Bullpower - but I'm off on holiday today for a while. I'm currently writing a blueprint document - a bit like our 'Framing the Future' document that won the Sky money. I'll put a link to it on here when it's completed.

So you have no opinion or fact to back up your argument re P&R???

The francises have helped produce stability and a blossoming junior set up - 20 years ago as a keen Rugby playing kid, I struggled to find a local RL side with a junior set up, this living within 10 miles of Leeds/Bradford/Huddersfield/Halifax/Wakefield.... now there are loads of junior sides and clear progression for those with talent to the SL set ups. P&R would kill that dead in my opinion. These kids will be the future stars, the ones that go Aus, the ones that actually have the beating of the Aussies in Internationals but it takes time for these kids to come through the system.

I'm sure Rutland TV will be interested in it!

I think that P&R would be great for the wider game outside SL. As a fan of a championship club, it's plain to see that we're all struggling at this level to stay afloat because of the lack of intrest in what is essentially a series full of nothing games topped off by a playoff series to decide....who goes absolutely nowhere. This fact, coupled with thursday night matches is absolutely crippling teams like Leigh (my team), Halifax, Fev, Sheff etc. Using last season as a comparison, when leigh played widnes on a sunday, we would get crowds of around the 4000 mark, which is a good payday for clubs in this league, crowds that if you had perhaps ten of them in a season, would cover a lot of our costs. Instead, we get the thursday nighters, people having to travel from fev-leigh and vice versa, knocking hundreds, possibly 1000-1500 of our gates, and to add insult to injury, it's all taking place in a competition that is basically to see who is the best team outside of super league, without any chance of ever getting to progress. I don't think SL would suffer much if P&R was to brought back financially, but i think the wider effect it would have on lower leagues would benefit the many, rather than todays system that focuses on benefitting the few. I personally don't know if bradford should go down, they aren't the worst team on the field in the league. I do however think that fev should be granted the chance to rise a level, it's about time rugby league was played on the pitch, not off it.

Reminds me of a Young Ones sketch.
Crop rotation in the 14th century was considerably more widespread...after...

Good post

One question - does the drop in attendance for the Thursday night games get offset with the extra TV and Sponsorship money brought in by being on the box?

To be honest mate i don't think it does. I don't have a figure on what the clubs receive, but am led to believe that is quite a meagre sum. Added to the lost matchday revenue through the bar, pies etc, i'd be very suprised if we were better off for the TV coverage. I think the initial idea in allowing the league to be televised was to advertise on a broader scale to potential sponsors, which in theory was a decent idea, but the thursday kick-offs are a nightmare, and obviously they want oe of the bigger games on, so its the clubs doing well who lose out. With no disrespect to the clubs, i doubt they're ever going to put york, swinton, hunslet etc on regularly. They probably have a minumum number of times they are to be broadcast over the year, but it's the teams that hit the playoffs, and do well in the NRC who have earned the extra home ties who are hit in the pocket.

Well, I hear on the grapevine that P&R is coming back in some form.

I just hope that it doesn't mean a repeat of the old scenario where a relegated SL team lose all their players who promptly sign for the promoted side who then get relegated the following year and the cycle continues.

IMO P&R at least provides something to aspire to. I can understand fans feeling cut off from the top flight game. Whether it's going to lead to a sustainable future for those clubs trying to get into SL is another matter.




John

Being a Wigan fan I have no interest in lower league RL so cannot really question your assertion that there is a lack of interest. I am not sure whether crowds are worse now than they have been in recent history. But if open P&R was introduced I have no doubt Leigh et al would be blowing their budgets annually trying to gain promotion. Similarly would their crowds hold up in SL if they were trounced on a weekly basis, with more consequent financial problems, which would affect SL. The claim that there is no P&R is not accurate, there is opportunity for all to put a case forward. As the chairman? of Fev said recently they have a 3 year plan for a SL place, which is much more sustainable than an annual panic. Now I wouldn't expect them to be successful & am not sure what will be the result to them as a club if they are unsuccessful.

The rest of RL is in my opinion just as important as SL clubs.

On the question of TV monies for champ clubs , it would appear that it was on a par with the Stobart sponsorship, ie they get jack.

This thread has descended into what is wrong with a lot of theings in RL. the "I'm alright Jack" attitude. fortunately the support the bulls had from some of its rivals shows that not all RL people think this way. There has to be a sustainable way forward for our sport at all levels. Amateur clubs, semi pro clubs and pro clubs.

I though the ideas of the salary cap and licensing was to bring stability? it is not working. simple as that!

I dont think that our sport can continue to prop up expansion teams, or have full time squads of players earning full time wages. Take the sky money away, and the money from wealthy owners and we are in bother, big time!

time to look at sustainable futures not pie in the sky modern stadia etc... we are a northern working class sport and should not be ashamed of our roots!

is it time to prune the bushes so new growth can come through?

Hs it? When did that happen?





Absolutely. There is just no way the likes of Wigan, Hull, Widnes, Salford, Saints or Warrington will ever be playing in modern stadia, when SL came in how could any fool ever have thought that sort of thing could ever happen/





When the seagulls follow the trawler, it's because they think sardines will be thrown into the sea

Actually it might be that there isn't.



It isn't simple though. Simple as that!



Do you not see the contradiction there?



I am a talented athlete from Leeds. Should I aspire to play football for United at Elland Road, yawnion for Carnegie at Headingley, possibly athletics? No, I'm going to put on my clogs & flat cap & play wugerby for t'Parkside at 3s6d a game on t'rec. Your plan is faultless.

But if you took my wages away and the welfare state, I would be in trouble big time!

Wealth backers have always been in sport, even when it was semi pro. The only difference is the size of the wallet of the backers. The Sky money, why would it stop? They have a schedule to fill, unless football is going 24/7 52 weeks a year they need something else to sell their advertising space on.

Should the Bulls stay up, well it depends on what value you measure on. Financially yes,
Morally well maybe not.
Fair play Yes - as they did not finish bottom of the pile.
etc etc

As for P&R should it come back, well either we are a sport or we are not. For me sport is about the onfield. If that holds no weight anymore about the progress of a club, then are we a sport anymore????

bewareshadows "As for P&R should it come back, well either we are a sport or we are not. For me sport is about the onfield. If that holds no weight anymore about the progress of a club, then are we a sport anymore????"---bewareshadows

Are American Football, Baseball, Ice Hockey, Basketball or more relevantly NRL ,sports/sporting leagues or merely businesses?
Personally I would like to see some form of promotion/relegation but have yet to be convinced that any model proposed in our sport would have more advantages than disadvantages. And some of the models proposed would , in my opinion be disastrous to the sport and to the affected clubs whether the promoted side or the relegated team. Essentially the problem is the change between semi professional and full time professional.
In the long term (certainly not in the current economic climate) I'd like to see some analysis of whether a "Conference" style top league (similar to NFL, and the main American sports ) is a possible solution. That would allow expansion as well as giving our traditionally based clubs a way to top league.

Just having a conference system wouldnt address the principle problem, a lack of money both in the lower end of SL and the tiers below it

For licencing to work requires the clubs outside SL to be closing the gap between them and the bottom of SL, that would then put pressure on the lower SL clubs to retain their licence , basically to find the type of rich investors that other sports attracts, those that dont lose out

don't be a pillock !