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| Quote ="Adeybull"
I'd add in that ffs why do we seem to be a couple of seconds slower off the mark at the PTB than the opposition? Leeds and Wire were out of the traps so fast we hardly got to make any yards. Yet when they had the ball they had made ten metres before we even seemed to move, and 15 metres per tackle was not unusual.'"
Because our pack rarely wins the collision nowadays. The referee will allow longer at the PTB for a dominant tackle which allows the defenders to get back into position. Far too often the opposition push through our attempted tackles which means quite often the defence is still getting back onside when they PTB.
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| Quote ="Adeybull"I'd add in that ffs why do we seem to be a couple of seconds slower off the mark at the PTB than the opposition? Leeds and Wire were out of the traps so fast we hardly got to make any yards. Yet when they had the ball they had made ten metres before we even seemed to move, and 15 metres per tackle was not unusual. Where was our defence? Yes OK Leeds and Wire looked to be offside at most PTBs, and yes it was the same ref allowing it - but same for both sides, so why did we look doped in comparison?? As we have in so many other games this season and last? .'"
We looked doped because it's obvious that for the majority of the players their hearts aren't in it. We're lacking enthusiasm in comparison with just about every SL team. Some just go through the motions. The errors come because we don't play as a team. There's a deeper problem at the root of this. I suspect it's in the whole culture of the club as it seems to have carried on under different coaches and different players.
Quote ="Adeybull"
I'd go along generally with af's replies too - and funnily enough I'd been thinking about Naylor myself as a defensive coach. God, what we would give for him playing for us now? Probably the best defensive centre, along with Ben Harris, we have had in SL?'"
To defend well two important ingredients are enthusiasm and teamwork. I suspect it's that and not defensive technique that are the main problems. Coaches can only work with the tools they have to some degree, unless we can find a coach with the magic ability to improve average players and there's only one coach I can remember who did that and he's long retired!
Quote ="Adeybull"
And re point 8, we MUST find a way of stopping losing all our good academy backs to other clubs, especially those with big wallets. You can do a list of academy players that have left Bulls to go on and do good things. And they are pretty well all backs. Its no wonder we have a dearth of good in-house backs at first grade if our in-house pipeline is diverted off to Wire and Hudds and Wakey! Somehow the club has got to find some money to keep these guys, or we will just see more of the same...until we disappear into oblivion.'"
Too right. What's the point of putting money into Bullbuilder/Big One etc if we're going to lose our best talent to other clubs (Hellewell, Wardle, Burgess etc). Are we really so strapped for cash? Also why allow SL ready players go (Hyde) and bring in ones we deem that aren't (Southernwood) if our resources are so stretched?
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| Quote ="Bully_Boxer"Because our pack rarely wins the collision nowadays. The referee will allow longer at the PTB for a dominant tackle which allows the defenders to get back into position. Far too often the opposition push through our attempted tackles which means quite often the defence is still getting back onside when they PTB.'"
Again down to a lack of enthusiasm, desire and aggression. In defence we rarely do it due to the same reason along with a lack of confidence in each other and teamwork.
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| There are quite a few who signed one year contracts, a few are trying their best to earn another one if not all they do is coming off at the moment! There are a some who look as if they won't be here or dn't want to be here next season! Hargreaves and Sibbitt for starters. Sykes 3 yr contract is the only questionable decision MP has made and then it may be LSH had some influence that way! Beaver went due to the Orford saga dragging on but again may have gone or let go even if the Orford saga had been resolved by September!
We may have a bigger Squad but the injury list seems to be longer than last year so its not helping the Team develop any cohesion on the park! Its a situation where once again the Club and real fans have to tough it out and hope that we get change in fortune sooner rather than later!
Getting Mason would be a waste of money, you would get more effort and commitment getting an old ex SL warhorse finishing his playing days in the Champoinship.
Briggs needs to be given more playing time now to try and reach SL standards, Royston found it tough and is now looking a lot better after getting some runs out!
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| Quote ="Bullseye"What's the point of putting money into Bullbuilder/Big One etc if we're going to lose our best talent to other clubs (Hellewell, Wardle, Burgess etc).'"
The point of supporting BullBuilder (whether by putting money into it or by supporting it in other ways) is precisely to help avoid the loss of our best talent to other clubs. When Wardle & Hellewell left, we had only been going a few months, but since then we have done several things - and plan to do plenty more - to make the club more attractive to juniors. However, this doesn't include salary issues, and the club must do their own bit there.
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| Bradford really need two or three really top quality players with the ability to change games (in a positive way). At the moment there is no-one in your squad (with the possible exception of Ainscough) that falls into this bracket. Obviously half-backs and backs are priority areas but none of the forwards really has the ability of a Puletua, for example. But a Sinfield, Roby, Chase or Tomkins is still most needed! Pryce would make an excellent signing but you really need a decent centre too. Platt may have stopped making howlers but he's still way behind the top centres and the new generation of younger players in this position. But it is odd that you don't appear to be developing any young backs. Maybe that's just the Bulls mentality - build 'em big to play in the forwards?
Whoever the top earners in the Bradford side are, they are not providing value for money. The likes of Lynch and Langley are steady eddies but need more explosive players around them. Elima approaches this category but isn't enough on his own. Signing Mason would be a bad move though and smacks of desperation - if there is a cultural problem at the club he's unlikely to be a shining light! It should be possible to pick up several very good players for next season (just look at Warrington's exemplary cap management!) without having to stake everything on some one like Orford or buy in a load of averageness which are the two extremes that Bradford seem to be flitting between...
As for injuries - I doubt any club will be able to field a full-strength side for more than a handful of rounds these days. Not much you can do about it, but most clubs seem to have problems in this area too.
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| Quote ="Exeter Rhino" But it is odd that you don't appear to be developing any young backs. Maybe that's just the Bulls mentality - build 'em big to play in the forwards?'"
We brought through Wardle and a young fullback recently signed by Warrington Ben Hellewell last year but we allowed them to leave due to us not paying them enough. A few years ago we allowed Atkins to leave in a very short sighted decision. We have young Finegan on loan at Sheffield who may come good.
Obviously the Bulls brought through the Pryces and Bridge too.
We can produce them, we just can't keep them!
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| 1. I can't help but ask the question why do we seem to have 'bad luck' with injuries every year? It gets to a point where it can't simply be coincidence?
2. Surely another massive turnover in players can't help? We need to build a core team who see themselves as Bulls players and a real passion for the club, not have players who turn up for a year or two and then move on.
3. I see no reason why we should use it just because it's there if the coach does not think it best.
4. I'm not sure you can blame Potter after half a season. He has shown what he can do with a struggling club with Catalans. He must be given at least the two years of his contract.
5. I don't see who would be better than Lynch (or possibly Langley) as captain of the team. At least these players have shown their commitment to the club. There were those who said Orford should have captained the team last year, look how that would have worked out.
6. See 2.
7. I agree a defensive coach would be welcome IMO.
8. I would say Whitehead is having a better year than last year. There's also Donno returning from injury, and the emergence of Olbison and Burgess. Let's not forget that unfortunately quality young players of Super League quality are a very attractive proposition for wealthier clubs who can easily outbid the likes of Bradford (Wardle being an example).
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| Quote ="Mission"1. I can't help but ask the question why do we seem to have 'bad luck' with injuries every year? It gets to a point where it can't simply be coincidence?
2. Surely another massive turnover in players can't help? We need to build a core team who see themselves as Bulls players and a real passion for the club, not have players who turn up for a year or two and then move on.
3. I see no reason why we should use it just because it's there if the coach does not think it best.
4. I'm not sure you can blame Potter after half a season. He has shown what he can do with a struggling club with Catalans. He must be given at least the two years of his contract.
5. I don't see who would be better than Lynch (or possibly Langley) as captain of the team. At least these players have shown their commitment to the club. There were those who said Orford should have captained the team last year, look how that would have worked out.
6. See 2.
7. I agree a defensive coach would be welcome IMO.
8. I would say Whitehead is having a better year than last year. There's also Donno returning from injury, and the emergence of Olbison and Burgess. Let's not forget that unfortunately quality young players of Super League quality are a very attractive proposition for wealthier clubs who can easily outbid the likes of Bradford (Wardle being an example).'"
In respect of 2 - would you rather we were left with the same mob we have this year, some of which don't appear up to the job? I understand your point in regards to a large turnover not helping matters, but I feel that is what we are going to see as Potter gets to shape his squad over the next 6-12 months.
3 - I think we would have used it had we had an opportunity to do so - why else are we looking at Mason? We did have our hands tied at the beginning of the year but we need to get some real quality for our money - or the very least some players who are consistently better than what we have already in our quota spots (Kearney and L'Estrange apart).
How do we build passion in the players? We heard comments last year that things "weren't right" and in many ways from a few sources I'm getting the same vibes this year....(you know what I mean!). Do these players want to put it on the line for the Bradford Bulls or are they simply collecting their cash???
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| The point about player turnover is well made. We've had a huge turnover of players since 2006. As a result we shouldn't be surprised if there's less pride in the jersey. A lot of those players were from clubs that were used to losing and we could only afford a very few top class players with the right attitude like Morrison and Menzies. As a result we've developed a "losing culture". Potter almost admits as much when he talks about trying to build a winning culture.
He's got a hell of a job to do.
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| Quote ="Bradford Badger"In respect of 2 - would you rather we were left with the same mob we have this year, some of which don't appear up to the job? I understand your point in regards to a large turnover not helping matters, but I feel that is what we are going to see as Potter gets to shape his squad over the next 6-12 months.
3 - I think we would have used it had we had an opportunity to do so - why else are we looking at Mason? We did have our hands tied at the beginning of the year but we need to get some real quality for our money - or the very least some players who are consistently better than what we have already in our quota spots (Kearney and L'Estrange apart).
How do we build passion in the players? We heard comments last year that things "weren't right" and in many ways from a few sources I'm getting the same vibes this year....(you know what I mean!). Do these players want to put it on the line for the Bradford Bulls or are they simply collecting their cash???'"
I would rather keep the majority of the current squad, yes. You simply can't just keep putting together a new squad year in year out.
I don't think we're looking at Mason because he is overseas. If the club deem him to be a valuable addition to our squad then they will try to aquire him, but they would if he was English too. This isn't a argument that we should aim to fill our overseas quota.
I don't know how you instill a passion for the club, and I'm not saying that all or indeed any of our current squad don't have it, maybe they do, but it certainly isn't always obvious from the terraces. I think you have to start by having a core squad who have been with the club for a long time and expect to play for the club for the rest of their career, not players who expect to play for a year or two. I also think that the more players we can bring through the academy into the first team the better. I also hope BullBuilder can help with this and the fans can show loyalty and commitment to these players, then they might show some back down the line.
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| I think the Mason situation doesn't really help explain the original post I made. We're looking at Mason because he is possibly available. If he was English and in a position of not being picked, we wouldn't be the only team looking at him. It's because we have a quota spot available that we are interested in what he has to offer in many ways and can look at him with a little more ease because of that.
If the bloke now at Canberra had gone quietly, Potter would have had more options to get someone else in previously, maybe we would be in a better position than we currently are?
In terms of building passion we do have a problem. As Bullseye points out - Morrison and Menzies were outsiders who brought that to the club. Scruton is another who does go out of his way to "make an impact". Other than that, as Mission pointed out, it is difficult to see this passion from the terracing with many of the squad we have. Who or what is to blame for this at the club is hard to say, but, it's not good and I for one thought the turnover of players and coach would have eradicated the lack of passion from previous years.
We will have a turnover of players - I'm not saying that the whole lot should go, but there are players in the squad who are on shorter deals who won't be here next year. There is always some turnover, even in the best sides, I feel we will need that little extra to compliment those players who do give a flying teapot about the club.
Most other clubs have several leaders in their sides, and not just those who have been at the club for a long period. Our recruitment next year needs to ensure we get a few of this type of individual (ala Morrison).
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| Quote ="Bradford Badger"We will have a turnover of players - I'm not saying that the whole lot should go, but there are players in the squad who are on shorter deals who won't be here next year. There is always some turnover, even in the best sides, I feel we will need that little extra to compliment those players who do give a flying teapot about the club.
'"
don't doubt there will be some turnover this year. but dont think it will be anything like the scale we saw last year. Maybe some of players where we have a lot of duplication leaving and younger players stepping up to provide backup next year. I'd guess at 6-7 out and only or 3 or 4 coming in but hopefully better quality.
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| Quote ="mat"don't doubt there will be some turnover this year. but dont think it will be anything like the scale we saw last year. Maybe some of players where we have a lot of duplication leaving and younger players stepping up to provide backup next year. I'd guess at 6-7 out and only or 3 or 4 coming in but hopefully better quality.'"
Hopefully that will be the case with the youngsters stepping up. In an ideal world that will happen. Just get the feeling we'll see a few more journeymen than we hope....
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| Don't forget that Potter didn't turn Catalans into a good team overnight. Their first season in SL was pretty woeful IIRC, even by recent Bulls standards. When they did start to improve their playing roster still featured many of the same faces. Bradford do appear to have a decent core of young players (forwards at least) who should form the nucleus of a solid side once you can get a bit of momentum going.
Sometimes it just takes time for things to get better. Leeds looked to be heading the same way as Bradford a few weeks ago, but they appear to have now dug themselves out of that particular hole (for now...). Keep the faith! At least your coach has a proven track record.
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| Quote ="Exeter Rhino"Don't forget that Potter didn't turn Catalans into a good team overnight. Their first season in SL was pretty woeful IIRC, even by recent Bulls standards. When they did start to improve their playing roster still featured many of the same faces. Bradford do appear to have a decent core of young players (forwards at least) who should form the nucleus of a solid side once you can get a bit of momentum going.
Sometimes it just takes time for things to get better. Leeds looked to be heading the same way as Bradford a few weeks ago, but they appear to have now dug themselves out of that particular hole (for now...). Keep the faith! At least your coach has a proven track record.'"
Most of our fans with half a brain can see Potter has a good record. Our season is resembling that first Catalans season with every game!
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| It has taken me three days to clam down after the Warrington debacle, but i am starting to try and see things in an objective and realsitic way. No way can we afford to spend any money on a transefer fee for a player, and we are operating with a skeleton staff across the organisation to keep costs down. There isnt a lot of flexibility to spend any extra money on any of the on or off field issues, unless as reasonably priced and available player could come to us with out a transfer fee or as a loan.
I still beleive that the current squad is only a couple of players away from beinga top 8 side. Our forwards can match most teams on any given day, and we have some strength in doeth in that area provided by the very good crop of young forwards that have been developed over the last few years. Any club in SL would be interested in Whitehead, Olbison, Burgess, Donaldson, and Kopczack has started to show his ability and is probably the most improved player in our squad.
We have had a shortage of good quality halves and outside backs for a few years now, since the 2005 was dismantled, and the shortage of available quality backs is hurting us. Look at the top teams, Leeds, Wigan, Saints, Huddersfield, Warrington. HOw many of thier back positions are filled by young British players? PLenty! They have seen the need to develop, or gamble on buying young backs and developing them. It hurts to see the likes of Atkins and Bridge excelling at wire, and Wardle being touted as a great prosepect, as we let them go. Atkins and Wardle's departures being especially short sighted! Of the regular Leeds Backline, only Delany and Webb are imports and they are top quality. the same applies at Warrington with monaghan and King. Saints, also have top quality strike players allied to good youngsters.
What we need more than anything is a leader on the field. Lynch and Langley lead by example, and are excellent ambassadore for our club and our game, but sometimesd you need a skipper (either named as captain or not) who will dish out a rollicking or two and who commands the fearb and respect of the other players. We've had this with the Penguin, Jimmy Lowes, and even Karl Fairbank.
we also need a half back who can take us around the field and direct things. A player that will get his hands on the ball 3 times every set, and who can unleashe the backline. Teams are beating us by going round us, not over. They are quicker across the field and creat space to advance up it. We biff and bash with the best of them, but hardly ever put players in gaps, or create an overlap.
For me, Disko as skipper with Briggs and Southernwood given a chance is the best we can do at the moment.
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| Quote ="isaac1"It has taken me three days to clam down after the Warrington debacle, but i am starting to try and see things in an objective and realsitic way. No way can we afford to spend any money on a transefer fee for a player, and we are operating with a skeleton staff across the organisation to keep costs down. There isnt a lot of flexibility to spend any extra money on any of the on or off field issues, unless as reasonably priced and available player could come to us with out a transfer fee or as a loan.
I still beleive that the current squad is only a couple of players away from beinga top 8 side. Our forwards can match most teams on any given day, and we have some strength in doeth in that area provided by the very good crop of young forwards that have been developed over the last few years. Any club in SL would be interested in Whitehead, Olbison, Burgess, Donaldson, and Kopczack has started to show his ability and is probably the most improved player in our squad.
We have had a shortage of good quality halves and outside backs for a few years now, since the 2005 was dismantled, and the shortage of available quality backs is hurting us. Look at the top teams, Leeds, Wigan, Saints, Huddersfield, Warrington. HOw many of thier back positions are filled by young British players? PLenty! They have seen the need to develop, or gamble on buying young backs and developing them. It hurts to see the likes of Atkins and Bridge excelling at wire, and Wardle being touted as a great prosepect, as we let them go. Atkins and Wardle's departures being especially short sighted! Of the regular Leeds Backline, only Delany and Webb are imports and they are top quality. the same applies at Warrington with monaghan and King. Saints, also have top quality strike players allied to good youngsters.
What we need more than anything is a leader on the field. Lynch and Langley lead by example, and are excellent ambassadore for our club and our game, but sometimesd you need a skipper (either named as captain or not) who will dish out a rollicking or two and who commands the fearb and respect of the other players. We've had this with the Penguin, Jimmy Lowes, and even Karl Fairbank.
we also need a half back who can take us around the field and direct things. A player that will get his hands on the ball 3 times every set, and who can unleashe the backline. Teams are beating us by going round us, not over. They are quicker across the field and creat space to advance up it. We biff and bash with the best of them, but hardly ever put players in gaps, or create an overlap.
For me, Disko as skipper with Briggs and Southernwood given a chance is the best we can do at the moment.'"
All hail the sense of realism.
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| On player turnover.
Surely it's a case of replacing some of the fringe players with genuine quality.
Not a huge turnover again.
E.g.
Briggs, Sykes and Sibbit are replaced with a quality 3, 6 and 10.
Thus the "regulars" now are pushed down the order to fight for a jersey, thus improving the squad overall.
3 in and 3 out wouldn't be a massive turnover IMO.
The following year 1 or 2 quality players replace fringe players.
Obviously there's only a finite amount of "quality" you can bring in, but you get the point.
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| Quote ="Wigan Bull"On player turnover.
Surely it's a case of replacing some of the fringe players with genuine quality.
Not a huge turnover again.
E.g.
Briggs, Sykes and Sibbit are replaced with a quality 3, 6 and 10.
Thus the "regulars" now are pushed down the order to fight for a jersey, thus improving the squad overall.
3 in and 3 out wouldn't be a massive turnover IMO.
The following year 1 or 2 quality players replace fringe players.
Obviously there's only a finite amount of "quality" you can bring in, but you get the point.'"
Agree with your argument completely. Only problem is your example, those three have at least another year on their deals and Sykes has another 2.
But three quality players would make a difference IMO. Whether we could attract them I dunno but we used to attract quality NZ test players back in the old days without a problem.
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| Disagree about Briggs in particular. Let's stop worrying about the half back situation now and start worrying about who our half backs are going to be in 2 to 3 years time. Briggs and Southernwood (and O'Brien for that matter) should be playing as many games together in the reserves as possible and building a partnership. We need some quality young lads who are going to be the nucleus of the Bulls team for a decade, and in the mean time I'm afraid we just have to wait. There is no quick fix here.
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| On the topic of defense particularly...
It seems to me that we can hold a team to only 25 yards progress in their own half, but when they get in our red zone they seem to shift the ball wide and score with some ease. We can make the big hits in the middle but teams seem to be able to run/pass their way round us.
I would like to see a focus on defense at the expense of any form of expansive rugby. I'd be happy for 'five drives and a kick' for a few weeks if we were prepared to defend like tigers. We won't win many awards, and we won't get many tries, but reight now we need to stop bleeding out points.
Some passion would be nice too...
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| on the issue of signings [url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/13280443.stmcould this fella be any use?[/url He's been linked with a code switch before, might be worth a punt?
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| Quote ="phillgee"on the issue of signings [url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/13280443.stmcould this fella be any use?[/url He's been linked with a code switch before, might be worth a punt?'"
Are you joking?
Completely unproven, yet would expect top dollar. Also seems like a trouble maker, frankly
If he signs for anyone it will be probably be Crusaders....
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| He's also 31 - probably one of those injury prone types like Leon
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