Me and a friend were discussing the recent spate of young players leaving and we ended up considering whether on a rough cost/benefit analysis investing in a youth system was of any value to clubs outside the top 6.

Obviously we spent more time discussing the Bulls but we also thought of Cas, HKR and until recently Salford, all of whom have produced decent level players , only to see them leave.

We considered the rough proportion of SC needed to run an under 19s plus the staff and facilities costs. We also discussed players like George Burgess who never played a game for the first team and Joe Wardle who played one or two. Not only did the salaries they were paid almost certainly outweigh what we received, the level of investment of staff and resources was wasted - or worse, to the benefit of competitors. I accept the 'figures' we used are pure guesses and merely for the benefit of the discussion

After some time we came to the conclusion that for the 4 clubs mentioned, not running a youth system (I know it's not allowed under RFL rules) would allow significantly greater investment in the 25 man squad and would also remove a pool of players for competitors to recruit.

We accepted the overall damage to the game as the overall player pool would shrink, the fact that it was of itself a very negative and bad thing but also came to the conclusion that the 'focus on youth' as trumpeted since Noble left/was ousted cannot be said to have provided any tangible benefits to the club in light of the likely cost/investment. This is not a situation unique to the Bulls or any coach, CEO etc.

The question is as CEO of such a club and there came a boardroom choice whether to invest a nominal figure of say £50k in kit, coaches, facilities, contract payments in the under 19s OR sign a decent standard SL player what would you do?

Good post.

In the old days if you had a "HANLEY" on your books you were guaranteed a cracking deal should he wish to leave for new pastures,CASH plus 2/3 good players so back then it was worth nurturing young talent and it kept clubs like Featherstone etc alive.Not so sure about the modern way of doing things when you are only getting 100k for top young players as compensation for their contract?
I remember when we sold Newlove,I was absolutely gutted but in exchange we got Sonny Nickle,Bernard Dwyer and Paul Loughlin PLUS CASH,so in hindsight that was a great deal for the club at that time.
For me though one of the greatest pulls Rugby League has is watching a young player grow and grow,watching a Hanley hatch from pure raw talent and such as Mumby come through the ranks,so maybe what I am saying is that you must have a youth set up as without it the game's lost imo.Maybe if such as Wigan want then to steal your player greater compensation sums should be involved and not just the said player getting a large rise in wages.

I've had similar thoughts myself recently; three Burgesses, Whitehead, Wardle Bateman, Larne Patrick, the list goes on and it's dispiriting to be honest .

In truth though, I feel we have to keep faith with the junior set up, even if it's with a heavy heart and big hope that our luck changes soon.

Yeah I think it's important. Wigan and Leeds both built up the current squads from youth when neither were top four contenders.

Thanks for the posts, but neither of you answered the question. Factor in the return of P and R and try and explain why any club in the bottom 6 wouldn't pare down the youth structure to its bare bones considering your best young players will leave anyway and nobody pays to watch under 19s.

I'm not sure that's entirely true but in the context of the sport they were certainly certainly top 4 'wealth wise'. I think both clubs have finished in the bottom 6 once each in SL.

It's no coincidence that the wealthiest sides have the best junior set ups (apart from Hudders).

That's because they can afford to do that.

With relegation back on the menu (probably) there's less incentive for clubs to plan long term when the risk is you could go down in one season.

Short sighted.

I know its impossible to keep them all but a team of

1. Reardon (I know hes not doing much now)
2. Naughton
3. Wardle
4. Atkins
5. Ben Hellewell
6. Bridge
7.
8. George B
9. Mark Flanagan (played there for wests and saints, struggling for a 9 tho)
10. Tom B
11. Bateman
12. Ferres
13. Sam B

With the exception of a scrum half I think this proves even throughout the noble years of not bringing youngsters through we have had the makings of a grand team! I know people say wigan could say many of their juniors are playing everywhere but the difference being they couldnt get a game due to other wigan juniors who were better. I think it proves we should be aiming to bring the young lads through when we can, and to be fair as we have been.

It might be but with the new threat of relegation and possible oblivion a club is more likely to concentrate on the present than the future as there may not be a future if you don't stay up. If money hand to mouth what do you expect?

7 or 8 years ago I'd have agreed without reservation but the evidence suggests that the further down the league and wealth table the club is, the greater chance that what benefit is accrued by investment in youth is not recouped by the club but goes to their wealthier competitors. Is this 'inverse proportion'?

Taken to it's conclusion, clubs in the bottom 2 would be better off by putting 17 random lads in the under 19's and merely telling them where to turn up to get hammered. All funds saved on coaches, kit, etc to be redirected to the first team squad.

when he left and I thought we saw the best of him, to be fair.

Atkins, Hellewell and Ferres are exactly the same as you say about Wigan ie they weren't good enough to break into the team at the time. I'll grant you Ferres was playing fairly regularly but he wasn't first choice.

Bridge was sacked for disciplinary reasons.

I don't think Flanagan really made it even when he moved away, in fact he's moved around a lot without 'making it'.

Don't forget Dave Halley as well

Bullseye: Why is promotion and relegation seen as a threat? Oblivion? It is a challenge; just as the franchise system was when that was introduced. What would be better if players are committed to the team (and their contracts) and won’t “jump ship” as soon as it becomes apparent that they are “going down”. The potential financial situation the club could find its self due to relegation is a direct result of the players not performing not due to the club’s youth policy.

M@islebugs: Interesting – walking to the game, playing in the nude – all money saving?

I’d say looking at our squad size and quality we’re more likely to be in the bottom half of the table next year. With any more key departures we’ll be further weakened and in more danger of finishing in the middle eight. That in turn means less income which means less resource which means smaller squad which means struggling on the field which means smaller crowds which means less income etc etc.

As that happens even the most committed players can become unsettled and want away. A club in those circumstances could be forgiven for doing all it can to finish in the top 8 next season.

Sounds like eating the seed corn if we ditch the youth program.

Even if the players don't stay with the Bulls we hopefully get a fee ( Bateman and Whitehead) and are helping to increase the overall player pool for the game.

I can see the financial situation might force this on a number of clubs - but long term it will hurt the whole game as with a smaller pool of players the top 4/6 will be in an even stronger position.

I wonder if recent sales would have occured if we had sold 7000 ST's?

Or had all the Sky Money.

I think the reported shortfall in ST sales is probably a much bigger hit to the budget than the lack of Sky money - and put the two together and you have a pretty big hole.

Have we announced a total number of Season ticket sales? Maybe they should do another early bird to cover the uncertainty of the weeks surrounding the ratification if the new ownership?

There's been no announcement of sales since the forum, to the best of my knowledge - though the phones and ticket office have allegedly been "red hot" since then.

One of the few things to come out of the forum was that there would be no extension to the 'early bird' price. To be honest, normally I would have supported that way of doing business because switching your offers about only makes it look like you don't know what you're doing, however with the recent problems with the RFL it might have been a 'goer' this time. Plus, many people get paid at the beginning of the month so a few more days might have pulled in those who got paid on the day it finished but couldn't get down or get through on the phone.

I understand what you are getting at but we don't ant to drop into the same position as before. There is no point in getting season ticket numbers if it doesn;t pay the mortgage. Early bird was extra cherap for people showing faith in the team and backing them when the future was uncertain. If you weren't willing to take that gamble then you an buy a season ticket at the regular price.

A timely reminder in the TnA that we have a couple of England Academy players one of whom got MoM against Wales. I hope Mellor does hit double figures in games this season, for all the right reasons, with the other younger players getting time too

though, as EB lasts for around six or more weeks I'd expect the majority to be sold at this price rather than the full price and for the club to budget accordingly. To be frank, I wouldn't think it would be a big deal to extend slightly, though as I said previously, there is a lot to be said for consistency. It would actually be interesting to know the percentages on EB and full price sales.

Compared to previous "if only sides" though I think that's weaker from Bradford - especially compared to the pryce era. As for the assertion it would be grand final challenging - it would be behind Saints, Leeds and Wigan (in a player movement free world) - also would face challenges from the likes of cas who seem to have the capability to produce plenty of youngsters

Can we get a team of what could have been, still playing?

Sykes
Atkins
Bridge
Wardle
Crookes
L Pryce

Peacock
Carlisle
G Burgess
Ferres
Whitehead
S Burgess

T Burgess
Kopczak
Bateman
Patrick

Fill in the blanks anybody, or thing of any better?