Tonight showed what I've been saying all year, we are in urgent news of a prop and stand off.

Laffranchi isn't a out and out prop and struggles against big aggressive forwards. He's just not big and physical enough in these big games. He holds his own most weeks and I wouldn't mind him playing prop next year but we 100% need a big aggressive meter making prop.

Lance built are hopes up over the last two games but he was back to his old self. Shocking kicking game, to slow on the ball, rubbish little show and go that didn't work but worst of all, he's not got a rugby brain (neither as lomax).

Until we sign a good prop and good stand off we will continue to be nearly men and will be knocking around 3rd, 4th and 5th spot.

We've got a decent stand off playing in the reserves. Well, at least he can kick, something which was embarrassing tonight.

I saw Wilkin warming up kicking bombs, mostof them went behind him so I should have seen it coming really.

This year watching Saints I've seen some of the worst kicking I've ever seen.

The whole team is a bit of a joke. How did we ever end up here? How come no one at the club spotted what we were talking about on here and did anything about it?

We do need a prop and stand off, but then we also need a winger, two centres, a fullback and a better bench. We're miles off.

Miles off????

We do need all them postions but we ain't going to get them. I think a prop and stand off is a must next year.

And the frustrating thing is it hasn't got any better as the season has gone on. Wilkin's bombs more often than not go behind him because he connects with the ball past 90 degrees, Hohaia plays aussie rules with the full back and winger and Lomax doesn't drive the ball he floats it. I often wonder if the staff actually spend and time working on this with the players because it's the same week in week out. Kicking is vital in rugby and it's a skill that is so obviously lacking in this saints side.

What did everyone make of our captain tonight? Am I the only one who can see how utterly shocking he is? How the feck is he even in the side let alone captaining it? He has the worst, most defeatist and negative body language of any supposed leader ever. His performances are a joke and yet he's in the press telling us how delighted he is with his form and his contract discussions. Utterly terrible tonight again, adds absolutely nothing to the side, we may as well play with 12. Compare and contrast his contribution as Captain to Jammer's.

What Saints need, as well as half a squad, is a leader. I'd say it's the most important of the requirements at the moment, we are so lacking in spirit and commitment.

Yeah, I'd say so. Wigan and Warrington have an extra gear they can move into that we simply can't live with. The squad players and the young players we have do not have any star potential, so it's not like we've got a queue forming to take the shirts off players that leave and we've not replaced Wellens, Lyon, Albert, Sculthorpe, Long or Cunningham yet. With every season we see another dip in quality. We're just lucky in a way that the whole competition is being forced into decline by the economy and the rise of the NRL. This is easily the weakest Saints squad we've had in 20 years and it's not got the mentality, the never say die attitude anymore and we've not got enough quality.

Troll

.....but we are third.

Third yes, but that's more a statement of the standard of the competition than anything. We're not capable of beating Wigan or Wire or probably even Leeds when it matters. I don't see this team ever winning a trophy. Perhaps I'm just a tad pessimistic, but I think it will take a big overhaul or the passage of a couple of cycles within other teams for us to get back amongst the trophies.

Kinda agree with Sadenned here. We're doing OK, but we are miles off Wigan and Warrington, as it stands at this current moment.

This time last year we were also miles off them.

How did their play off runs go?

No worse than our's ultimately. And don't even suggest us reaching another Grand Final, just don't mention it. I couldn't take it.

Hardly miles off when we make the big 'un and they don't.

Best prepare yourself for the worst... I can see the annual trip to the Wet City.

Me too... Probably against Wigan... God help us... Give me 2 80-0 defeats against Wire in the playoffs beforehand any day.

We had something last year that we don't this year: an effective halfback partnership. It's a sad state of affairs when Wilkin is our main kicking threat.

I agree, but a lot of people are too blinded by the past that they either won't or can't admit it. Wellens has been a great player for us but sadly doesn't contribute enough anymore to warrant being in a top 4 side. He made 2 good contributions tonight, catching a bomb and putting Shenton through for his try. Other than that he was constantly late getting to attacks, threw the ball on the floor a couple of times and killed possession.

Our play off run blew up in the last game of the season against Leeds. But we were and are a comfortably team than Saints last year or this.

We can't stretch a defence out wide like Wigan and Wire do and its mainly because Wellens movement across the back and into the line is so easy to monitor. Hohaia proved his pace last night tracking down Myler and we know he can be dangerous with the ball in hand.

We've based our revival on a % game, but surely that lends itself to picking a standoff with a kicking game, rather than a player based on the odd bit of flair. Lance can be dangerous, but I'm afraid our ball movement, when compare to the W's is poor. Gaskell should be #6 - The team would be much better off for it.

As most of us mentioned, we were worried about Wire's ability to up the intensity. We've had a poor line speed since Royce took over and that hasn't really improved. Wire came on to the ball at pace and our failure to meet them properly meant they were getting easy yards, landing on the front foot and getting offloads away without a problem.

Our players didn't disgrace themselves. I thought we had good games from Perry, Clough, LMS, I thought Dixon played well when he came on. I thought Shenton was good with ball in hand, despite getting a few hospital passes (although I haven't rewatched the Waterhouse try, which could have been a black mark to him), but as a whole, much like the Wigan games, Wire played 10% quicker/keener/more agressive across the park which left us with little chances. If we can flick that switch and gear things up (like Leeds do when its needed), then we will be be a true threat to the clubs above us, but untill then........

Final remark - Ben Westwood. What an animal. he way he trucked the ball up was immense

Willie Manu will add some much needed fire power to our pack but we still are in dire need of a prop.

Tommy makinson is a real worry for me now, he's very low on confidence and Warrington had his number all night and it was clear from the first min what they was going to do with tommy.

He'll come through, he's got some great qualities and seems like a solid character.
A few weeks ago he was picking bombs out the air for fun, but he seems to have the colly woblles with them at the moment.
Also, whilst it was a great effort to get riley into touch, he'd drifted in towards the centre, which is something he's been guilty of doing earlier in his career. As you say, if we can get his confidence back up, these things should dissapear.

As we mentioned before the game, playing puletua wide of the ruck completely marginalises him. Whilst he was ok in his stint later in the game, on the whole he was anonymous. They'd have been better playing Laffranchi out there and Puletua in the middle.

The one saving grace for Makinson is that the fans don't seem to identify him as a scapegoat. Had that been Jamie Foster last night, there would have been pitchforks and torches and a mass witch hunt.

Makinson should be playing fullback, he should have been playing fullback for 2 years. I think we're going to ruin the potential he's got, he doesn't seem comfortable on the wing and he isn't playing well this season.

In hindsight do you not feel you missed a trick not signing Chris Hill last season? I know Purtill and others from Saints came to Leigh and watched him quite a bit last season and his ability was there for all to see. Saints had eyes on him way before Warrington came onto the scene and yet seemed to hesitate, and hesitate and eventually he got an offer from Wire instead.