It's all just personal opinion. You've invented this tier 1 thing in your head to help you process how good certain players are.

IMO the definition of a great player is personal to each fan and it's who inspires you ie Tommy Martyn was a genius...Huddersfield fans probably think similar of Danny Brough. Both not given a fair crack for their country. Anyway, I forgot what my point was. Oh, and the NRL isn't the only league to have great players.

He's going to throw the dictionary at you now!!!!

Haha, I was stood in Geno's waiting for my kebab when I typed that out, hence me losing the point of what I was on about (Some proper bladdered bloke was going mad about how he wanted chips and his wife was trying to usher him out).

What I was trying to say (in a really bad way) is that it's a team game. Yes, there are a few outstanding individuals, but the effect and influence they have on a game can also depend on the players around them and their teammates ability to be on the same page. So an exceptional hooker (that you would describe as Tier 1) would stand out much more with the right forwards around him than if he was at Batley or wherever.

Agree in RL it is a team game, also there are a few outstanding individuals, but I don't think the sport these days has many Real True Superstars, that people say I will go to watch the game just to see them.

You'll prob get some stat now on his Batley have the 2bd best pack in world rugby abd haven't been dominated since 2007.

The debate if sam tmkins is the best in his position in the world is pointless, we know he's not. But in SL with the possible exception of leeds (having Hardacre) every team would love him in their team.
For comedy effect i'd love anyone other than Wigan to sign him, but i just can't see it, especially with his brothers there

But it's the only league in which great players can be tested fully. And "greatness" isn't some arbitrary distinction which holds across multiple frames of reference. We might all disagree about the precise criteria for greatness. We might not even be able to put such into words. But we intuitively know it when we see it. Whilst such judgements are likely to reflect personal biases and aren't always reliable. It doesn't automatically follow they are worthless. I mean, Wigan & Saints fans might totally disagree on who was the better out of Vollenhoven and Boston - only the most blinkered would describe the other as anything other than a top, top player.

Tommy Martyn wasn't a great player because Saints fans somehow fell under some giant delusion. Martyn was great because Saints fans WITNESSED him perform the kinds of deeds few players are capable of. Admittedly, Martyn possessed other attributes that doubtless raised his worth in the eyes of fans (i.e. he played with personality) - but aside from Jamie Lyon I'm struggling to think of a more naturally gifted player wearing a Saints shirt in my lifetime.

And there's nothing wrong with celebrating those players who reach the absolute pinnacle of achievement. The Aussies don't arbitrarily award the Dally M to some random player. Ditto several of their other awards. The winners of such are Tier 1 in every way imaginable. I hesitate to mention the Man of Steel award because I think it's thrown up some bizarre results. But generally speaking it is a fairly good indicator of quality.

The Grand Masters of player evaluation into various strata are the Americans. No one would suggest the NFL player draft is some arbitrarily cobbled-together hodgepodge. Sure, first round draft picks don't always work out. But there's a reason NFL clubs covet such like gold.

This boy not signed yet so we can close this....

Which boy?

What about Paul Groves???

Kit Kat lol

He was a good hooker!

Groves was way ahead of his time (although I wouldn't put him anywhere close to Lyon or Martyn). He left Salford under a bit of a cloud - but no-one doubted that he heralded the arrival of a new generation of intelligent hookers. I particularly enjoyed his party piece of diving through the legs of the man playing the ball to grab it out of the hands of the opposing hooker. IIRC, he pulled that stunt in the 32-22 victory at Wigan at a crucial point in the game.

It's a pity his career was curtailed by crippling back injuries.

He works as builder now

We,ve been blessed with some of the best hookers in the game playing for saints, excluding Howarth you have to go way back in saints history to find an average No 9.
Also, we are very lucky that Cunningham and Roby never went over to the NRL.

Just think, if tommy hodgkinson hadn't got injuried, we Might never have seen KC.

I came in at just about the end of Graham Liptrot's career. Lippy had a good reputation. But I didn't see enough of him to really make a judgement. What I will say is that if I didn't buy a program I might never recognise he was playing. Can't think of anyone who was more ... well ... [ianonymous [/iin matches. I realise this doesn't sound like a particularly great advert for a player's usefulness. But I should remind everyone that hookers were a radically different species back then. Generally they were a highly specialised class who were largely expected to go about their business without a great deal of fireworks. Paul Groves represented the spearpoint of an entirely different philosophical approach to the dummy half (the dynamic Balmain hooker, Benny Elias, was perhaps the best of the lot).

If you never saw Reg Blackemore, Paddy McKinnon, Paddy Lannon, Bob Dagnall, Bill Sayer, Len McIntyre or McCabe play you won't understand what a hookers main role was back then, Halcyon days, just ask Rogues LOL, especially about Bill Sayer's performance at Wembley.

Used to love watching bennny elias.

Seggy was good friends with my dad. He didn't want to leave Wigan but they wouldn't pay him an extra £5 per game to play in the reserve (A team) and the rest is history.

My son was over in Australia in 2013 for a wedding and bumped onto Benny Elias at Wests Leagues Club. He said he was good fun to talk to especially after a few beers.



Anyway back on topic, it wouldn't surprise me if we see Sam Tomkins on Sky during the Wigan v Wire game on Thursday.

There were a breed of hookers after that who went beyond the scrum skills, these were break out runners like Tony Karalius for saints, always remembered he had hands the size of shovels.

I think it was the 86 Kangaroo tour during which the players consumed a staggering quantity of alcohol on the plane coming over. It's become the stuff of folklore these days.

This is why I've never bought the notion that Australian players are just that bit more professional than their English counterparts. Over the years the city of Brisbane has been terrorised by an army of footy hell-raisers beating up startled citizens, smashing up bars, abusing women etc. etc.. Consuming beer in great quantities and then behaving like a bell-end is about as Australian as the digeridoo.

My youngest Son (RIP) always had his Orange Balmain shirt on with number 9 on the back.

Best get the Kleenex ready...

Could be tears of laughter from us lot that he has failed to survive in the NRL. We said a few seasons back that he's needs to prove himself in the NRL, others have done that, I,m not sure if Sam can convince people that he is in that category.

I think it was a very bad idea for him to choose the Warriors. You're kind of in the NRL - without being [iin the NRL[/i. If you know what I mean. The Warriors have always been a tight-knit, us-against-the-rest club. Tomkins was making life doubly difficult for himself attempting to barge in and take someone's jersey (whilst commanding the kind of money which will ALWAYS rebound on you should you fail to do anything other than become a total success).

Had he gone to one of the Sydney clubs I think he'd have been far less homesick (not least because there are plenty of English lads knocking about in that league right now). Plus I feel he would have been handled differently. I've never thought he's a full back. Maybe they'd have tried to mould him into a five-eighth.

He's not been a failure. Indeed, he's played pretty well. But he's not drawn the kind of repeated rave reviews which the likes of Burgess, Graham ... and even Gareth Ellis pulled seemingly for fun.