I agree to the above, another thing is that we are not communicating either particular in defence. Not sure if this 2 captain role is working either, I would give the proper role to Graham with Wellens as vice captain.

Don't think we can make a judgement on Royce Simmons yet, he has had no stability in the side and no organisers at his disposal in the games so far.

If I was doing the coaching role, for the next 2 months (Pyrce) I would take Eastmond out of the organising role and put him at Full Back. Wellens to try and organise from Loose Forward position. We would have to perservere with Gaskell at Scrum Half he is at putting in an effort (with errors) Lomax would go to Stand Off . Don't know why we keep Meli on the Wing when we have Foster who is more reliable at Wing, Meli is more of a danger to the opposition at Left Centre.
In theory the pack looks OK, but is not operating as a go forward unit, for me this is a priority and needs sorting quickly by Simmons as this is where we have lost games so far, we are not comeback kings anymore, giving teams 20+ start (Wire + Harlequins) just means making the score line more respectable in the second half.

Lastly the biggest concern is relying on one player (Pyrce) to make our season, I think fans should accept we have lost the prime component of Stability and get ready for a Jekyll and Hyde Season.

'All' Maguire had to do was put the finishing touches'. Is that not the point of my post, which you seem to have avoided/missed? Answer me this - had Brian Noble remained at Wigan last season would they have been as competitive? The evidence before us would indicate not.

Maguire added something that CLASS coaches have - the ability to, QUICKLY, squeeze every last ounce of ability out of every player, motivate them and develop a cohesion amongst the group that changes attitude.

Bennett may have taken 2 years to WIN anything but that's not what I said. I said top coaches change things quickly and start to make things happen. St George started to become far more competitive once he took over. Save for a poor final season Brisbane went the opposite way.

Read Wayne Bennett's book - 'Don't die with the music in you'. You'll read that his approach is all about combining technical knowledge and an approach that nurtures your players and that you have to CHANGE the way things are done and instil a winning culture and positive behaviours.

Bellamy is the same; albeit with a different approach and clearly Maguire has learnt from him. I understand that prior to Royce's appointment we were after the hottest young property on the NRL coaching scene in Shane Flanagan - someone revered as having a very bright future in the game for the same reasons.

As far as Anderson is concerned they rate him the same as, say, Shaun McRae - decent bloke but not having the sustainable ability of coaching at the highest level. You can get as defensive as you like about SL as opposed to the NRL but their comp and standards are way ahead of ours - that's why they consistently kick our ar$es. They produce better players and they produce better coaches. If they didn't then we'd stop clamouring to bring 'em over here wouldn't we.

The point in my post is that Royce's track record doesn't categorise him as either a top coach or a potential top coach and this is a view, rightly or wrongly, reinforced Down Under. In my opinion this is already beginning to become evident and which I feared would be the case when he came. It may be early, that point I'll concede, but he wasn't an appointment with the pedigree we SHOULD have been chasing.

We need a top coach. We do not have one. I actually do hope I am wrong.

After the ludicrous amount of time dedicated to bashing Potter last season, there is zero chance of SaintsFan admitting we look worse off without him.

Potter is a very good coach and did a sterling job with a decimated squad last season. I haven't seen or heard anything from Simmons that gives me any confidence in him whatsoever.

Spot on and exactly what I've been saying. Potter did a ok job with a injury hit team.

It look like the current team don't want to play for Royce.

That's pathetic even by your standards, FTV.

If we are playing as poorly as we are at present in Simmons' second season I will be equally as glad to see the back of him as I was of Potter. In my view that would mean we had experienced two poor coaches in succession. If Simmons turns out to be a bum appointment then that doesn't make Potter better; it just makes for two poor coaches!

And Potter was flush with resources when compared to Simmons. At least Potter had two functioning halfbacks for most of his two year stint with us. Simmons has yet to have a bloody week. AND Potter had Cunningham, our leader. Where is our leader this season? (Recruitment is the responsibility of the club, btw, not the coach)

Royce has got a better squad than potter had.

He appointed Two leaders. Not one. Two.

None of whom are leading thus far. One is probably too old and in the wrong position. The other is wrestling with a career choice.

Neither were good appointments in isolation let alone in tandem.

Meh, it's my view on it.

When Saints were working the way towards the GF with a weakened squad last season, it was nothing to do with Potter and only happening because the players were ignoring him. When we played badly, it was because Potter was clueless.

It is no surprise to me that the exact opposite appears to be the case this season; players losing games and Simmons winning them.

There was no evidence to suggest Simmons would make a good head coach, but ample evidence to suggest he wouldn't. A lot of people got their wish with Potter being replaced, time will tell if it was the right thing to do but at the moment we appear to be being coached by a dud. Not that I would expect the more vociferous anti-Potter posters to acknowledge it any time soon.

I was responding to your reference to me, as you well know. That was the pathetic bit. You're entitled to your view and I don't have to resort to sarcasm or silly put downs or whatever because I respect the fact that other people are entitled to their opinion. I don't agree with your opinion, either on Potter after two seasons or Simmons after five weeks, but you're entitled to it nonetheless.

You continue to make your childish comments about my opinion of Potter which was based upon a full season and a bit of his tenure and yet you think you are justified in writing off a coach after five fooking weeks? Hypocrisy.

Potter did an absolutely remarkable job as head coach of Catalans and got Saints to a GF twice. Simmons has a pretty disastrous head coach CV.

I've seen nothing to suggests that Simmons performance as a head coach at Saints will be any different to his other clubs. Unfortunately, the "anyone but Potter" approach taken by many last season may not have been in the club's best interests.

I desperately hope Simmons does a great job, I'm a Saints fan after all. I just don't think he is head coach material, more a "one of the boys" assistant coach. I could be completely and utterly wrong, but I fear I'm not.

And that was different from my point how exactly? I said that Maguire put the finishing touches to a team already poised on the brink. Noble took them as far as he could. Millward took us as far as he could. Anderson put the finishing touches to our team; Maguire to his. New coaches bring in a new dynamic. But Maguire had a far easier task than Simmons has. Far easier. All the materials were there for him, all primed and ready for the final finishing. He did that and kerching! Grand Final won. But then we are the perennial chokers at OT so I'm sure he was rubbing his hands with glee when he discovered it was us who were to be their opposition for the night!


However, so far as Anderson is concerned, clearly whatever was said by NRL pundits was a complete waste of time because he tweaked our team and took it to success of a kind we had not known in decades. Scuse me for mocking but if that's the wisdom coming out of the NRL these days, I'd rather not listen!


Oh, ok. Glad you've put your finger on it so astutely.


You state we don't have a top coach but then hope you are wrong. Cover all bases, why dontcha! I've no idea whether we have a top coach or not. I'm willing to give him considerably more time than five bloody weeks and a couple of months with half a fit/present team in training before even considering whether he could be a problem. Just the same as I did with Potter in fact.

He did indeed do a remarkable job at Catalans. They were new to Superleague and over two seasons I believe, he did a terrific job. No argument there. He'll quite likely do a great job at Bradford too. Know why? Because like Catalans they need hauling up as opposed to maintaining. The GF bit doesn't wash with me because we'd already been there three times, losing twice. Now. If we had WON the Grand Final, I may well have credited him something. But our team already knew what needed to be done to get there and there was Cunningham on board to show the way. Still couldn't win though. I won't go into Potter's personnel choices for the night. Oh, and we didn't make it to a Challenge Cup final during either of his years whereas we had made it to and won the three previously. Oh, and we played the most boring rugby ever for the last third of his first year. And we looked fat and unfit throughout the second season. But let's not remember those things, eh?


Well, he did take Penrith to a Grand Final. He was at Penrith a long time. Too long probably. He's also been under the tutilage of Sheens at Wests for seven years and assisted with the national team and an origin team. I don't see how that is any worse a CV than Maguire, for example? Simmons' time at Penrith and subsequent period as assistant to Sheens could have been the making of him for all we know.


In five weeks? Wow!! You have a crystal ball there?

Really? So he took a team that were, frankly, awful and had not achieved for as long as I can remember to the pinnacle of the game in one season and his job was far easier? Whereas Simmons inherited a team who had been to the last 5 GF's with a clutch of up and coming youngsters to fill the boots of those lost; and his job was 'harder'? Your logic is perplexing.

Any Wigan fan reading this would attest that, without Maguire's coaching Wigan would have continued to under achieve. Ergo, and my point, Maguire was the cause, the immediate improvement/success the effect. Simmons is 5 games in and we're going backwards.



You are deluded if you consider SL to be remotely on the same level as the NRL. Let me spell it out. This is an inferior comp. Average NRL coaches can look good over here. Anderson. Elliott. Millward. Potter. Matterson. McRae. Smith. They fail in the NRL.

Average NRL players can look like superstars over here. Because it's an easier comp. Most SL players can't succeed in the NRL because SL is an inferior comp. Thorman, Flanagan, etc. They are not good enough. If they were they'd stay out there and succeed. Few like Morley, Burgess and Ellis do. And in anticipation of the believist response, good on 'em.



For a second I suspected you may be capable of reasoned debate. Clearly not. My error.



Why is that covering all bases? One is my opinion one is aspirational. I hope I am because I'm a Saints fan. I want them to win, not fail. If my being wrong comes at the expense of Simmons turning out to be a super coach then I am happy to be wrong. But my opinion stands - he isn't and never will be. Not based on 5 games but on his zero track record and the opinions of those who know far more about the game than you or I ever will.

Good for you for giving him so long. You clearly haven't witnessed the pitiful displays thus far this season and borne witness to performances that at best can be described as ordinary. Your opinion is respected, just not agreed with.

to be fair, he's not had five weeks though has he? hes had since november so thats about 4 months, even allowing for international players coming back and christmas, he's had at least 10 weeks with the players.
How long did it take Maguire to make Wigan a dominant force again?

My point entirely. Good coaches exert change quickly. Ours hasn't.

Oh and I'm now annoyed with you - if you're clever enough to be that succinct why didn't you do it earlier??

sorry about that, its been a heavy weekend, my brain is just recovering

Dux and I have talked in length about Mick Potter's tenure, the last coversation we talked about how both Anderson and Potter were students of Brian Smith and both had a very 1D approach to the game, 4 big props, bashing it up, quick play the ball etc. Dux then raised the very good point that these days, we find ourselves in the position Bradford used to around the 2000 mark, often finsihing top of the pile, only to be beaten by Saints come final day, because, come the big occasion, our forwards could match their bully boy tactics but then we had tghe more fluid backs.
Noble is the same, he'll drag you up the table, but unless his paper side is far superior, don't bet on his team in a final.
McGuire has taken a good, not great, bunch of players and got them moving the ball in a way that I haven't seen Saints do sonce Millward was about. That's what we need - Hopefully our disjointedness so far is only a result of Simmons scrubbing the decks clean so he can inplement a brand new, cutting edge attack.

He came over in December, didn't he? Or was it late November? Around that time. Anyway, Robes and Jammer were still off due to their international duties. Kyle was still injured and about to have a second operation. Josh Perry was nowhere to be seen at that point, remaining in Australia until January time. Wello was also injured at that point, Lomax couldn't walk due to a fracture in his leg and Pryce was still in rehab after his neck operation. And that's only the injuries I can remember! We also shipped a few players from last season. By the time he got to round 1, he didn't think he would have Kyle but did; thought he would have Leon but didn't. He was still without Josh Perry and Jonny Lomax, and Wello was still dodgy although he played for most of the match against Wigan. Wheeler played at halfback with Kyle, who wasn't really there even though he was. Then Wheeler got injured. Etc, etc, etc. I'd like to know how that scenario can be compared to the start of the first season Potter was here. Potter had a full compliment of players for the full off season bar those who had been on international duty. He also had two experienced halfbacks and a fantastic leader in Cunningham.

Crikey, imagine the posts I would be getting if it was me calling for Royce Simmons' head after just five weeks of his first season with us! It's bloody ridiculous what some people are saying on here! Jeez.

Oh, and Wigan won the League Leader's Shield and the Grand Final. That does not make a 'dominant force'. For all we know it could be a one-off.

They only won against Hull today thanks to a penalty.

Then we were watching a different Saints under Anderson. We used to have wonderful hands. What Maguire has done is given Wigan a defence. Without their defence, Wigan would be just the same as they were under Noble, as we found in Cardiff. Once they stopped the piley in defence, we started to score against them, and that was without a kicking game or indeed two fully functional halfbacks.

In that case, i would be of the mind to drop eastmond now and try someone else at seven, a big call, but he wont be here soon enough anyway

all those are just excuses, so he has players injured, MP had 10 out at one stage last year and you didnt allow him any slack

You bagged potter so much and now I get the feeling you are starting to see what a good job he did with a injury hit squad, you even blamed the injury problems on Potters training!

I've also been told by first team players that most players don't feel confident in Royce Simmons and think his methods are dated.

I'm not calling for his head and not heard anyone else call for his head but it's plain to see the team is lacking coaching at the moment. The is nothing positive in any of the games so far and still picking up injuries.

When Simmons announced we was having two captains, the first thing that came into my head was he's bottled his first big decision.

It's early days with Royce but I'm very very worried about all aspects of our game. The attack is terrible and predictable, we can't tackle, kicking utter rubbish and worst of all we have no fire, pride or heart.

Because IT WAS HIS SECOND SEASON!! And it wasn't just the injuries! They were fat and unfit - even people who were pro-Potter were making that point last season!

Bloody hell. You are being ridiculous! If I had started saying the kinds of things you are saying five weeks into Potter's first season what would you have said in response? The pi$$ taking on here would have been overwhelming! However, I didn't start criticising Potter until the Hull match at the outset of last season - and I was not alone. I gave Potter the whole of the first season. But to you and others like you - Simmons is because he isn't Maguire!

I really, really hope now that Simmons creates in Saints the best team since the world began. Boy will I enjoy copying and pasting all these posts if that happens!



Revenge would be mine!!

Yeah, yeah, yeah!

Scuse me if I just give the bloke some time to work through all the various issues that have confronted him since he arrived in order to enable our team to play a brand of rugby league that does not involve Kieron Cunningham running around like a mad man trying to get a game back on track.

They were fat and unfit i'll give you that, but it got us to the grand final despite injuries.
If Royce does turn it around and turn this team of potential world beaters into the world beaters, noone will be as happy as me!