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| Quote ="SaintsFan"I prefer to wait until the verdict has been announced by the NRL before condemning someone when the evidence provided is in fact inconclusive. Unlike you and some others, I have no wish to be part of the lynch mob.'"
I think you are being far to sensitive and protective! are you telling me of all the live games you have been to you have never shouted high tackle or trip ref! that is making a judgement on what you have seen! You are being emotive with the use of lynch mob.
What is good these days is that most games are filmed even when not on TV, but being such an high profile final there would be camera's at all angles, with video you can watch over and over again and it looks highly suspicious when you look at Graham's face and the anger with his mouth open and going towards Slater's ear.
Are you saying then when Slater went to the referee and showed the blood coming from his ear he had made it up? to get a fellow professional into very serious trouble.
We are not judge and jury, that will be decided Thursday this week, but the evidence does not look good but that is just opinion and forums like this have plenty of that whatever you may thing. It just shocks me with James Graham.
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| Quote ="hooperman"Jammer is doomed, he will either need telepathic control of the judiciary or the services of Johnnie Cochrane. I mean I think he's probably one of the best players in the world, but there really is no defence to what was on the video!'" It has to be the Chewbacca defense then, doesn't it?
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| Quote ="The Chief"Ryans appearances before the RFL disciplinary since 2008 including intentional striking with the elbow, striking with the knees and a physical assault on a referee.
ON/748/12 Ryan Bailey Leeds Catalans v Leeds 21/09/12
ON/662/12 Ryan Bailey Leeds Catalan v Leeds 18/08/12
ON/588/12 Ryan Bailey Leeds Hull KR v Leeds 05/08/12
ON/589/12 Ryan Bailey Leeds Hull KR v Leeds 05/08/12
ON/543/12 Ryan Bailey Leeds Leeds v Bradford 20/07/12
ON/423/12 Ryan Bailey Leeds Leeds v Wigan 01/06/12
ON/387/12 Ryan Bailey Leeds Leeds v St Helens 21/05/12
ON/121/12 Ryan Bailey Leeds Leeds v Warrington 09/03/12
ON/27/12 Ryan Bailey Leeds Wigan v Leeds 11/02/12
ON/922/11 Ryan Bailey Leeds Huddersfield v Leeds 23/09/11
ON/909/11 Ryan Bailey Leeds Leeds v Hull FC 18/09/11
ON//909/11 Ryan Bailey Leeds Leeds v Hull FC 18/09/11
ON/677/11 Ryan Bailey Leeds Hull v Leeds 24/07/11
ON/544/11 Ryan Bailey Leeds Leeds v Bradford 24/06/11
ON/252/11 Ryan Bailey Leeds Leeds v Huddersfield 15/04/11
ON/255/11 Ryan Bailey Leeds Leeds v Huddersfield 15/04/11
ON/637/10 Ryan Bailey Leeds Hull FC v Leeds 04/09/10
ON/629/10 Ryan Bailey Leeds Warrington v Leeds 28/08/10
ON/567/10 Ryan Bailey Leeds Leeds v Wigan 30/07/10
ON/500/10 Ryan Bailey Leeds Hull KR v Leeds 09/07/10
ON/492/10 Ryan Bailey Leeds Leeds v St Helens 03/07/10
ON/363/10 Ryan Bailey Leeds Bradford v Leeds 23/05/10
ON/212/10 Ryan Bailey Leeds Leeds V Hull FC 11/04/10
ON/168/10 Ryan Bailey Leeds Leeds v Bradford 01/04/10
ON/152/10 Ryan Bailey Leeds Wigan v Leeds 26/03/10
ON/36/10 Ryan Bailey Leeds Wakefield v Leeds 14/02/10
ON/08/10 Ryan Bailey Leeds Crusaders v Leeds 29/01/10
ON/776/09 Ryan Bailey Leeds Leeds v Catalans 02/10/09
ON/130/09 Ryan Bailey Leeds St Helens v Leeds 20/03/09
ON/133/09 Ryan Bailey Leeds St Helens v Leeds 20/03/09
ON/84/09 Ryan Bailey Leeds Warrington v Leeds 08/03/09
ON/85/09 Ryan Bailey Leeds Warrington v Leeds 08/03/09
ON/85/09 Ryan Bailey Leeds Warrington v Leeds 08/03/09
ON/14/09 Ryan Bailey Leeds Leeds-v-Wakefield 13/02/09
ON/686/08 Ryan Bailey Leeds Leeds v Wigan 26/09/08
ON/667/08 Ryan Bailey Leeds St Helens v Leeds 19/09/08
ON/381/08 Ryan Bailey Leeds Leeds v St Helens 20/06/08
ON/326/08 Ryan Bailey Leeds Leeds V Wigan 31/05/08
ON/329/08 Ryan Bailey Leeds Leeds V Wigan 31/05/08
ON/114/08 Ryan Bailey Leeds Castleford v Leeds 07/03/08
James Graham over the same period, dissent, dangerous tackle and a strike with the forearm where he was considered not guilty - it was a different St Helens player.
ON/841/11 James Graham St Helens St Helens v Salford 02/09/11
ON/310/08 James Graham & Chris Flannery St Helens Hull V St Helens 24/05/08
ON/97/08 James Graham St Helens St Helens v Wakefield 02/03/08
'"
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| For those of you who think I'm just arguing for the sake of it (ie most of you), take a look at [url=http://www.theaustralian.com.au/sport/nrl/distant-billy-slater-annoys-league-commission/story-fnca0von-1226486865605this report.[/url
Could it possibly be that Slater is telling porkies?
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| Quote ="SaintsFan"For those of you who think I'm just arguing for the sake of it (ie most of you), take a look at [url=http://www.theaustralian.com.au/sport/nrl/distant-billy-slater-annoys-league-commission/story-fnca0von-1226486865605this report.[/url
Could it possibly be that Slater is telling porkies?'"
IMO unless the is clear footage of James Graham with slaters ear between his teeth then graham can't be found guilty.
The has to be clear evidence of a bite!
I can also see why billy slater had wanted to stay away from the incident, I think he Made the allegation in the heat of the moment and probably thought about it after the game and decided to leave it on the field.
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| Quote ="The Chief"Ryans appearances before the RFL disciplinary since 2008 including intentional striking with the elbow, striking with the knees and a physical assault on a referee.'"
Couldn't find any incidences of biting or gouging by Bailey then?
No?
Thought not.
All you could find is a history of minor incidents involving niggle, where in the vast majority of cases he wasn't even charged.
Quote ="The Chief"
ON/748/12 Ryan Bailey Leeds Catalans v Leeds 21/09/12 =#FF0000No charge
ON/662/12 Ryan Bailey Leeds Catalan v Leeds 18/08/12 =#FF0000No charge
ON/588/12 Ryan Bailey Leeds Hull KR v Leeds 05/08/12 =#FF0000No charge
ON/589/12 Ryan Bailey Leeds Hull KR v Leeds 05/08/12 =#FF0000No charge
ON/543/12 Ryan Bailey Leeds Leeds v Bradford 20/07/12 =#FF0000No charge
ON/423/12 Ryan Bailey Leeds Leeds v Wigan 01/06/12 =#FF0000No charge
ON/387/12 Ryan Bailey Leeds Leeds v St Helens 21/05/12 =#FF0000No charge
ON/121/12 Ryan Bailey Leeds Leeds v Warrington 09/03/12 =#FF0000Deliberate contact with ref. 3 match ban. £300 fine
ON/27/12 Ryan Bailey Leeds Wigan v Leeds 11/02/12 =#FF0000No charge
ON/922/11 Ryan Bailey Leeds Huddersfield v Leeds 23/09/11 =#FF0000No charge
ON/909/11 Ryan Bailey Leeds Leeds v Hull FC 18/09/11 =#FF0000Raising knee. 1 match ban
ON//909/11 Ryan Bailey Leeds Leeds v Hull FC 18/09/11 =#FF0000Appeal unsuccessful
ON/677/11 Ryan Bailey Leeds Hull v Leeds 24/07/11 =#FF0000No charge
ON/544/11 Ryan Bailey Leeds Leeds v Bradford 24/06/11 =#FF0000No charge
ON/252/11 Ryan Bailey Leeds Leeds v Huddersfield 15/04/11 =#FF0000No charge
ON/255/11 Ryan Bailey Leeds Leeds v Huddersfield 15/04/11 =#FF0000Fighting. 1 match ban. £500 fine
ON/637/10 Ryan Bailey Leeds Hull FC v Leeds 04/09/10 =#FF0000No charge
ON/629/10 Ryan Bailey Leeds Warrington v Leeds 28/08/10 =#FF0000No charge
ON/567/10 Ryan Bailey Leeds Leeds v Wigan 30/07/10 =#FF0000No charge
ON/500/10 Ryan Bailey Leeds Hull KR v Leeds 09/07/10 =#FF0000No charge
ON/492/10 Ryan Bailey Leeds Leeds v St Helens 03/07/10 =#FF0000No charge
ON/363/10 Ryan Bailey Leeds Bradford v Leeds 23/05/10 =#FF0000No charge
ON/212/10 Ryan Bailey Leeds Leeds V Hull FC 11/04/10 =#FF0000No charge
ON/168/10 Ryan Bailey Leeds Leeds v Bradford 01/04/10 =#FF0000No charge
ON/152/10 Ryan Bailey Leeds Wigan v Leeds 26/03/10 =#FF0000Undue pressure on shoulder joint. Fined £300
ON/36/10 Ryan Bailey Leeds Wakefield v Leeds 14/02/10 =#FF0000No charge
ON/08/10 Ryan Bailey Leeds Crusaders v Leeds 29/01/10 =#FF0000No charge
ON/776/09 Ryan Bailey Leeds Leeds v Catalans 02/10/09 =#FF0000No charge
ON/130/09 Ryan Bailey Leeds St Helens v Leeds 20/03/09 =#FF0000No charge
ON/133/09 Ryan Bailey Leeds St Helens v Leeds 20/03/09 =#FF0000No charge
ON/84/09 Ryan Bailey Leeds Warrington v Leeds 08/03/09 =#FF0000No charge
ON/85/09 Ryan Bailey Leeds Warrington v Leeds 08/03/09 =#FF0000Cautioned
ON/85/09 Ryan Bailey Leeds Warrington v Leeds 08/03/09 =#FF0000Appeal unsuccessful
ON/14/09 Ryan Bailey Leeds Leeds-v-Wakefield 13/02/09 =#FF0000No charge
ON/686/08 Ryan Bailey Leeds Leeds v Wigan 26/09/08 =#FF0000No charge
ON/667/08 Ryan Bailey Leeds St Helens v Leeds 19/09/08 =#FF0000No charge
ON/381/08 Ryan Bailey Leeds Leeds v St Helens 20/06/08 =#FF0000No charge
ON/326/08 Ryan Bailey Leeds Leeds V Wigan 31/05/08 =#FF0000No charge
ON/329/08 Ryan Bailey Leeds Leeds V Wigan 31/05/08 =#FF0000No charge
ON/114/08 Ryan Bailey Leeds Castleford v Leeds 07/03/08 =#FF0000No charge
'"
3 game ban for deliberately pushing a referee, a 1 match ban for raising a knee, a 1 match ban for applying undue pressure to an opposition players shoulder and a 1 match ban for fighting. A grand total of 6 matches banned and fined a total of £1100 over the same period. And that's all you could find on him? WOW, no really
Quote ="The Chief"Do you need any more straws? Point proven, Bailey has a track record when it comes to his reputation and an incident involving Graham is more surprising as it is out of character. Is that in plain english enough for you or is it still a little bit too difficult you to understand??'"
Thanks for the straw man approach and the abject lesson in moral equivalence. Let's wait and see how many matches Graham is banned for biting shall we? I'm betting he'll overtake Bailey in the [u"total number of games banned table"[/u in one fell swoop, the filthy git!
Quote ="The Chief"I have absolutely no idea what this has got to do with anything but in answer to your question, yes, I had a great time at the Grand Final as a guest of Engage. I had a fantastic meal in the exec box and great seats to watch the game.....but then I guess you would already know that.
Im genuinely made up that I have a stalker!
'"
I fell asleep during your presentation. Hardest work I've ever had to do for a free meal, free goody bag and free Grand Final match tickets. Mind you, I fell asleep during everyone else's too apart from the fella who had his legs blown off in Afghanistan who was an inspiration to all.
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| Quote ="William Eve"Couldn't find any incidences of biting or gouging by Bailey then?
No?
Thought not.
All you could find is a history of minor incidents involving niggle, where in the vast majority of cases he wasn't even charged.
3 game ban for deliberately pushing a referee, a 1 match ban for raising a knee, a 1 match ban for applying undue pressure to an opposition players shoulder and a 1 match ban for fighting. A grand total of 6 matches banned and fined a total of £1100 over the same period. And that's all you could find on him? WOW, no really
'"
A significant history of "minor incidents" that proves the point I made in my initial post. He has a reputation for being a cheap shot merchant and had he done something like Graham is alleged to have done, people would be less surprised. You can argue all you want, but that is a fact. The charge sheet is as long as his arm and there are plenty of instances where Leeds players have been found not guilty of offences when players from other clubs have been banned. That is precisely why Wane was spouting in the media last week, trying to apply some pressure to the RFL disciplinary.
Nice to see though that you gloss over the physical assault of a referee as some kind of minor high brow technical offence. Knock yourself out. 3 match ban for such an incident once again goes to show the RFL's lack of balls. We are all quick to criticise the Premier League but they handed out an 11 match ban to Paolo Di Canio for pushing a referee. So your point is what??? That Bailey only deserved a three match ban??
Quote ="William Eve"
Thanks for the straw man approach and the abject lesson in moral equivalence. Let's wait and see how many matches Graham is banned for biting shall we? I'm betting he'll overtake Bailey in the [u"total number of games banned table"[/u in one fell swoop, the filthy git!
'"
I fully expect Graham to receive a hefty ban if he is found guilty and quite rightly so. Its certainly not anything I would condone on a rugby pitch with my players, but then again, neither is pushing a referee, applying undue pressure to a joint or deliberately raising a knee in a tackle with the intention of smashing someones collar bone. Im glad you are not involved in the game as a coach for any of my children if you think that is somehow morally more acceptable.
Quote ="William Eve"
I fell asleep during your presentation. Hardest work I've ever had to do for a free meal, free goody bag and free Grand Final match tickets. Mind you, I fell asleep during everyone else's too apart from the fella who had his legs blown off in Afghanistan who was an inspiration to all.'"
The injured soldier was inspirational, but its nice to see that for the most part you spent your time at an RFL conference effectively. At least you got a free ticket to the game, whereas I actually got a VIP seat, a three course meal and a £5k cheque for my club. Not a bad reward for a 10 min presentation but I really couldnt give one if you want to keep dishing out childish jibes in an effort to make yourself somehow seem superior, its tedious, petty and irrelevant.
You can keep on wasting your time trying to big up Bailey, but Im done feeding the trolls.
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| James Graham is pleading not guilty to the ear biting charge. The club has appointed a legal representative for him.
Added to the inconclusive pictures, the disinclination of Slater to provide photographic evidence, attend the hearing and his statement that he wants to 'move on' (how convenient), this whole thing is looking more and more like a trumped up charge.
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| So, he'll say that he was bear hugging Slater to immobilise him and screaming something down his ear, which could explain the incriminating photos and lack of injury.
It may seem a long shot, but if its a case of reasonable doubt, it may work for him.
I'm not entirely sure I believe him, but innocent until proven guilty.
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| Quote ="SaintsFan"James Graham is pleading not guilty to the ear biting charge. The club has appointed a legal representative for him.
Added to the inconclusive pictures, the disinclination of Slater to provide photographic evidence, attend the hearing and his statement that he wants to 'move on' (how convenient), this whole thing is looking more and more like a trumped up charge.'"
If that's true, I believe him. I'd believe Jammer over Billy Slater any day. I questioned on here the possibility of it being a false allegation, designed to get him sent off and help them win the Grand Final. Melbourne and Slater himself are more than capable of that level of cheating.
The injury is a nonsense, a nail shaped cut mark. Could have been gum shield, could easily have been a stray finger, even his own.
It'll be interesting to see what Graham actually says about the incident, and what Slater comes out with. Their initial disgust at the incident, turned quickly into them not talking about it, to them refusing to provide evidence to the disciplinary hearing. Me thinks it was all a ruse to get a red card dished out.
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| He's been found guilty. Length of ban yet to be determined.
It will be interesting to hear what was said at the judiciary.
Edit - 12 weeks. It's really a lot less however as the international and (I think) two trial games will count towards it.
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| Quote ="Smurf"He's been found guilty. Length of ban yet to be determined.
It will be interesting to hear what was said at the judiciary.'"
12 match ban. Unclear if internationals count.
Interesting to hear if there's any backtracking on here now all the evidence has been been fully judged.
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| Quote ="The Chief"A significant history of "minor incidents" that proves the point I made in my initial post. He has a reputation for being a cheap shot merchant and had he done something like Graham is alleged to have done, people would be less surprised. You can argue all you want, but that is a fact. The charge sheet is as long as his arm and there are plenty of instances where Leeds players have been found not guilty of offences when players from other clubs have been banned. That is precisely why Wane was spouting in the media last week, trying to apply some pressure to the RFL disciplinary.
Nice to see though that you gloss over the physical assault of a referee as some kind of minor high brow technical offence. Knock yourself out. 3 match ban for such an incident once again goes to show the RFL's lack of balls. We are all quick to criticise the Premier League but they handed out an 11 match ban to Paolo Di Canio for pushing a referee. So your point is what??? That Bailey only deserved a three match ban??
I fully expect Graham to receive a hefty ban if he is found guilty and quite rightly so. Its certainly not anything I would condone on a rugby pitch with my players, but then again, neither is pushing a referee, applying undue pressure to a joint or deliberately raising a knee in a tackle with the intention of smashing someones collar bone. Im glad you are not involved in the game as a coach for any of my children if you think that is somehow morally more acceptable.
The injured soldier was inspirational, but its nice to see that for the most part you spent your time at an RFL conference effectively. At least you got a free ticket to the game, whereas I actually got a VIP seat, a three course meal and a £5k cheque for my club. Not a bad reward for a 10 min presentation but I really couldnt give one if you want to keep dishing out childish jibes in an effort to make yourself somehow seem superior, its tedious, petty and irrelevant.
You can keep on wasting your time trying to big up Bailey, but Im done feeding the trolls.'"
Ryan Bailey match ban total = 6
James Graham match ban total = 12
HTH
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| Quote ="craigizzard"12 match ban. Unclear if internationals count.
Interesting to hear if there's any backtracking on here now all the evidence has been been fully judged.'"
None from me. It's a civil case and therefore is judged on the balance of probabilities rather than beyond reasonable doubt. The disciplinary committee have judged that on the balance of probabilities Jammer bit Slater's ear. The evidence is still inconclusive.
Given that this is a 12 match ban one thing is clear: the disciplinary committee wanted to make an example out of him. Previous bans for this have been 8 matches.
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| Quote ="SaintsFan"None from me. It's a civil case and therefore is judged on the balance of probabilities rather than beyond reasonable doubt. The disciplinary committee have judged that on the balance of probabilities Jammer bit Slater's ear. The evidence is still inconclusive.
Given that this is a 12 match ban one thing is clear: the disciplinary committee wanted to make an example out of him. Previous bans for this have been 8 matches.'"
Which previous bans for ear biting were those?
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| Quote ="William Eve"Which previous bans for ear biting were those?'"
William Zillman from gold coast got 8 games for a bite a couple of years ago.
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| So its 12 games -2 pre season games and possibly - the international games ( yet to be clarified ) it could be as little as 8 and even at 8 i think given the damage to Slater's ear its a bit harsh when you can eye gouge or jaw break and get less.
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| Quote ="SaintsFan"None from me. It's a civil case and therefore is judged on the balance of probabilities rather than beyond reasonable doubt. The disciplinary committee have judged that on the balance of probabilities Jammer bit Slater's ear. The evidence is still inconclusive.
Given that this is a 12 match ban one thing is clear: the disciplinary committee wanted to make an example out of him. Previous bans for this have been 8 matches.'"
Previous bans for biting the arm not the face, also mitigated by showing contrition to the discipliary committee and an early guilty plea. Considering that case got 8 games, some would think Graham got off lightly.
There have been no similar cases to Graham's in recent memory.
I'm less than amazed that you haven't changed your mind, despite saying that you'd wait until the case was judged. Clearly that only applies if the considered judgement happens to back up your own prejudice.
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| Quote ="brook40"William Zillman from gold coast got 8 games for a bite a couple of years ago.'"
Was it an ear bite?
No?
Thought not.
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| Quote ="brook40"So its 12 games -2 pre season games and possibly - the international games ( yet to be clarified ) it could be as little as 8 and even at 8 i think given the damage to Slater's ear its a bit harsh when you can eye gouge or jaw break and get less.'"
Nope.
They aren't ear bites either.
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| Quote ="William Eve"Nope.
They aren't ear bites either.'"
Im not arguing the guilt,but whats worse a broken jaw,the possibilty of getting blinded or a small knick on the ear ? Yes he bit him and yes its a stupid act from someone who should know better,but at the end of the day the damage that was actually caused should be taken into account,
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| Quote ="William Eve"Nope.
They aren't ear bites either.'"
There is no special charge of ear biting and therefore it is irrelevant where the bite is. Blood is pumped everywhere in the body, just in case you didn't realise, so where infection from a bite enters the body doesn't matter, it's the risk of infection that is the issue here not the location of the bite.
As for the earlier request about NRL players and their bans for biting, [url=http://www.nrl.com/bulldogs-delay-grahams-nrl-hearing/tabid/10874/newsid/70142/default.aspxscroll down to the bottom of this article[/url and in actual fact it refers to the previous two players charged getting a combined ban of 12 weeks, so six each.
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| Banned because he's English. He was found guilty even before the hearing had been done.
He should leave the NRL and return home.
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| Quote ="SaintsFan"There is no special charge of ear biting and therefore it is irrelevant where the bite is. Blood is pumped everywhere in the body, just in case you didn't realise, so where infection from a bite enters the body doesn't matter, it's the risk of infection that is the issue here not the location of the bite.'"
If you are going to suggest that the NRL made an example of Graham by handing out a 12 game ban, you need to cite comparative like-for-like evidence of lesser bans being handed down for exactly the same offence of ear biting. Can you cite that evidence? Yes or no?
Quote ="SaintsFan"As for the earlier request about NRL players and their bans for biting, [url=http://www.nrl.com/bulldogs-delay-grahams-nrl-hearing/tabid/10874/newsid/70142/default.aspxscroll down to the bottom of this article[/url and in actual fact it refers to the previous two players charged getting a combined ban of 12 weeks, so six each.'"
Nope, those two cases you cite in that link above aren't examples of ear biting either.
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