lost narrowly at home.

You should not want to sack the coach, that is the province of the Widnes Forum

Great post, Roy Haggerty.

The problem is we need a very rich man to replace him. One who doesnt care that much about his money

Or a chairman that tells the truth and not try to put a spin on things. I've said from day one that all this crap he was spouting about the "golden generation" coming thru and what great youth we've got was all "doing it on the cheap"

When everyone was taking all that crap in, we had stupid silly team listings on here of kids. We had the fans taken in by McManus saying we don't need to replace anyone with outside players because we've got this young player and that young player but where is Jamie foster, lee Gaskell, Kyle Eastmond, jake emmitt, ashurst, Dixon, tyrer etc?

90% on here fell for the spin doctors "we going with youth".

IT WAS DOING IT ON THE CHEAP!!!!!!

Rant over

McManus should have been honest and come out and told us that the stadium build will mean we can't bring the quality of player in that we are used to but will try and get there, it might take years but we we want the fans to understand that the stadium had to come first (or something along those lines)

I agree and I've said it before it's all about communication. Fans would be more likely to be patient if the club was talking to us , like you say and being honest.

Exactly my point

I don't think that's necessarily true. If you look at what Wigan have done over the last few years, they haven't spent big in terms of recruitment. They've relied mainly on their youth and are reaping the benefits now. The same could be said of Leeds. The difference is they have done it better than us, and when they [ihave[/i dipped into the transfer market they have been [ismarter[/i about it than we have. I don't think they've spent more than us though.

Well said.

McManus has made mistakes - only a fool would deny that - but I also think some people on here are talking nonsense and making out things that simply aren't true.

The fact is, every season we've spent up to near the cap. We've never gone for the "cheap option". Bringing players through the youth system is part of the game. When McManus was talking about focusing on youth development instead of automatically bringing in established players, he was doing so against the backdrop of one of the strongest & most promising groups of young players to have come through the youth ranks in years. Players like Roby, Eastmond, Lomax, Foster, Wheeler, Gaskell, Dixon, Makinson, Emmitt, etc. There'd been significant investment in bringing that group together at Saints.

The general feeling amongst fans at the time was that this was the right route for the club. I mean, why invest in a strong youth programme if you're then just going to bring in older journeymen from other clubs, whilst the young players leave and potentially carve themselves top careers for our rivals?

As it turns out, most of these players haven't turned out to be the answer, for whatever reason (either moving on - Eastmond - or not developing to their earlier potential)

Yet the club hasn't stopped recruiting during all this. In the last four years, we've brought in:

Soliola
LMS
Perry
Laffranchi
Hohaia
Turner
Manu
Flanagan

Some have been good buys, others haven't lived up to the reputations and past performances that led us to sign them (through no fault of McManus). But all are on a decent wage. Hardly 'going for the cheap option'.

As I've said before, we've had rank bad luck with some signings, whilst other plans have had to be completely rethought (eg the "future England halfback combination" of Lomax & Gaskell).

We are now at a stage where we need to rebuild. We need to find a way to jettison the underperforming players and use their salaries on better recruits (although, who's to say these wouldn't also be flops, contrary to past performances...)

This is the first time Saints have hit a real crisis in playing staff since at least 1998 (when we stank in McRae's last season) and I think we should wait to see how the club responds before becoming hysterical. If players like Perry, Frank, Hohaia & Wellens are still at the club next season, then I'll join in the calls for wholesale change at the top. Similarly, if the Walsh signing doesn't come off (or we don't sign another experienced half) and replace Perry & Frank with proven front row enforcers, then I will again agree with those demanding McManus goes.

But let's give those in charge at the club a chance to put right mistakes that we only see with the benefit of hindsight.

Yes but when Sam Tomkins head was turned, they paid him big big money to stay - we couldn't keep either graham or Eastmond (don't believe the lifestyle crap, money talks)

They lost finch and lulu and BOUGHT Blake Green and Matty smith.

At top young prop was all purchased from Hull KR.

Match reaction? So far a load of ing whinging.

Is there a reason you posted or did you just fancy a troll?

We are entitled to whinge and whine when we pay money and watch rubbish.

Whinging in reaction to the match though....

I'd give Widnes a bit of credit...but you shipped 28 points and nearly messed up against a side that had little clue.

Wigan have lost to Widnes with Tomkins missing

I don't need your credit. I'll take the two points instead.

I suppose you take what you can get when your Widnes. I hear the lower divisions are missing you

They're going to just love you though.

Did you go to the match last night or did you play safe and stay at home.

Unlikely, we'll not be anywhere near bad enough to get relegated (if it existed) and in a business sense the St Helens club is in a very good place at the minute and has a strong franchise value.

Widnes? Not so much. I genuinely do hope you find a new chairman because you've been gradually getting better in SL and it would be a shame to see that go to waste.

Don't get too big for your boots though, you're still a spec in the distance in terms of a worry for Saints at the minute and a small club in franchise terms.

Maybe when you lose your franchise you could become our feeder team? Wigan could use your gaff everytime uncle Dave boots them out too .

It's was hear breaking for me, watching on Friday, but I'm going to try and grab some positivity from it, hoping desperately that Brown does have a master plan.

All things considered, we're not quite as bad as when Royce was sacked IMO. When Rush took over we immediately improved, but they did so by employing a game of short passes around the ruck, which was simple but effective in the games where our forwards would gain he upper hand. However, against the bigger/better teams at the end of the season games, we were sometimes a little ineffective if we weren't completely dominant up front. There is a possibility that Brown has stripped us right down in order to rebuild us ingrained with a better catalogue of attacking rugby.

Now, for those who didn't see the match, he played Ashe as a first receiver in the centre and split Wellens and Turner left and right in stand off roles at the expense of the extra forward. This approach, to have 3 attacking pivots is an exciting idea and if we got it to work could see us, with our exciting young backs, have the ability to pierce the league's best defences.

The moving round of players, especially the likes of Greenwood and Jones between the back row and centre, may be with the aim of teaching players to play with their heads up and "play what they see", instead of robotically running moves. This is some thing that separates the great final teams from the pretenders.

Unfortunately, the major problem we have is that our ball handlers in the middle are of such desperately turgid ability for that role, that we are struggling to get anything right. Two new half backs and our returning hooker and full back would make a universe of difference.

The reservations I have are as follows -
Why's the defence and general effort of the forwards so lacking? Perhaps the defence, like the attack is being rebuilt from the bottom and will take a while before we click?
Why, if we're building to the future, are we playing Wellens at 6? Surely he won't be here next year!?
Wellens and Howarth are crap with the ball and poor in defence, there is no way the likes of Charnock and Speakman could have done any worse than these two IMO.

Two massive positive from the game are as follows -
Luke Thompson. He's been covered in other posts.
Jose jones. Had the unenviable task of marking Gareth hock and did a good job on him.

He did. If only Pablo Wellens played as well.

That amuses me far more than I think should.

Why not? You could always get Ian Millward back!

I know Howarth will not be around for long so he does not worry me. I just wish Nathan would decide on Paul the guy is a legend and is trying his heart out BUT a youngster in the position he is playing could not do any worse. And I would not put him back at FB so what do you do. I would give Charnock a good go at 6 and we just have to play Lance at 7 I don't see an option. It doesn't look like Ashe is the answer and he is 21 not exactly a kid.