Why should I?

Burrow deserves plenty of credit [ifor making the break[/i, but if Meli doesn't take the dummy he is either clattered and the break stops or he throws out a high-risk pass without looking which would most likely have gone forward and/or into touch.

Think of it this way. Had Meli made the tackle would Brian McDermott or ANY of the Leeds fans have given Burrow the merest shred of credit given that he'd bombed a certain try (and possibly the match itself) by not giving the ball to his support?

Noone's denying that he can be a liability and has cost us big in a few finals, but the fact remains that he overall brings more positives to the table than negatives - we might very well not even have been in the position of getting to the final in the first place without his (usually) top class contributions throughout the season. And while he contributed to Saturday's defeat he was a long, long way away from being the worst offender, and it is a little galling to see him yet again copping the sole "Designated Scapegoat" role. And there is still frankly noone any better to play at #4 for us either on the market or in the squad until Wheeler proves he can stay fit for any length of time. I dread the next time he lets loose a howler in a big final as much as anyone else, but he's still the best bet we've got sadly.

Players have to take responsibility and he was a liability on the wing, as he has been at each of our GFs to date. He took a ridiculous dummy to let one try in and missed tackles when we needed him to be on his game due to the injuries. No, he wasn't the only one - Moore let Rob Burrow through, for instance, and Soliola had a poor game, giving away penalties and diving out of the defensive line, etc - but with Meli it is every bloody GF. And on top of that he was doing f-all in taking the ball forward, again. He wasn't the only one there either. TP was bloody useless (and only completed 19 tackles the whole match - criminal for a so-called prop forward; or indeed a second rower).

I like Meli, I just don't know why.

Actually I thought Meli was comfortably our best player at O/T last year (not saying much though), but granted his O/T record against Leeds is pretty shocking... But it is still a fact that he has by no means been the sole offender in any of those finals - it is also a fact that he is always singled out for even the slightest little error he ever makes and every one, no matter how inconsequential, is always jumped on by voracious hordes of Saints fans coiled like springs waiting to have another go at their personal little pinata. I remember the debacle against Harlequins at the start of the season when he was clearly by far the best Saints player on the pitch, running and tackling hard all night and saving a certain try when noone else in a redvee looked as though they could be d, and yet because he also ran a kick return out (by trying a bit too hard to try and get some yards off it) he was absolutely lambasted by the serial numpties on a certain other Saints-themed discussion board I used to frequent...

Best player in the final last year? His defence with lomax out wide was utter shocking!

I know exactly why - he has consistently been our only genuine attacking threat out wide for about 3 seasons now (since Gidley got old in fact). Defending against Saints' three-quarters could have been reliably accomplished by 4 traffic cones in that time without him in the squad. Whatever his deficiencies (and God knows they are many and frustrating) we need him in the side for that reason alone.



...and he was also the only player to consistently trouble their defence the whole game. Who do you think played better than him on the day because I don't remember any other Saints player turning up?

He'll always be the best we've got if we don't play anyone other than him in the position. The winners of SL are crowned such at Old Trafford. One match. But the [icompetition[/i goes from week one to the GF. We conceptualize OT as something individual but the truth is the entire game is the grand final split into segments with the last one being the final five minutes or so of an array of game segments.

You claim he wasn't the worst offender. I agree. But he WAS the man who blew the match . Again.

If we had a player who cost us the match in the last five minutes of every game we played we'd sack him (I hope). Meli is doing precisely the same but over a longer period. Any other sport would laugh at this farce. Are we really suggesting our game is so shot to pieces we can't find a suitable replacement for an unprecedented walking calamity?

Wow - Philosophical Quasi-Existentialism in an RL discussion thread - who'dve thewt it?



And unfortunately we are [ivery much[/i suggesting that there is no suitable replacement - certainly not one that offers any cutting edge at all (in a backline otherwise lacking in it severely). The stand-in centres almost every team in the entire league have to play with is conculsive and irrefutable proof of this fact.

And do you really think it would have been a good move this season (or next) to play with only Wellens (who you presumably want rid of and replaced with the likes of Ashe asap now) and Shenton in the entire backline with any level of experience or proven game-winning ability at all as would have been the case if we'd released Meli and played the likes of Armstrong there instead? The reason that the likes of Makinson, Foster, Lomax, Gaskell have improved and developed so well and so quickly is that they have had plenty of opportunity to play alongside the likes of seasoned old 'uns like Wellens, Gardner, Meli etc. With your philosophy of trying out random kids to see if any stick instead of Meli, we'd have had hardly any players over the age of 21 in the backs this season at all and they'd have been serially slaughtered every week, killing their collective careers in no time and leaving us struggling even to make the playoffs. Experience in the side is crucial, and the state of the market means that only mediocre experience is readily available. C'est la vie.

Meli peaked in 2006 when we were unstoppable since then he hasn't been worth the shirt

I think Meli has been fantastic up to the Grand Final most years.

Like the rest of this yellow livered lot, there is now an obvious mental block when it comes to Grand Finals.

We won't win another one until the majority of these players have left.

Which stand-in centres? Joel Tomkins? Wigan can hardly be expected to find a replacement so quickly for a player they never thought they'd lose. Ablett? Another short term measure. Matt King? If when he was tearing it up in the NRL (playing wing and centre) Matt King had approached Saints saying he'd like to play in the centres anyone would have turned him down? I think not.

No one is suggesting there is an abundance of talent at centre. But it's not quite as dry as the Sahara just yet.



First. Yes - it would have been an excellent move. We could have run with Wheeler (who already has plenty of experience) and had - possibly - Armstrong (who also has some experience) as his standby. Wheeler might lack Meli's scoring power but he has plenty of other attributes which more than make up for it. And before you claim Wheeler would have been injured for much of the season leaving only Armstrong we don't know that. Events would have changed and so would the circumstances leading up to Wheeler's injuries.

You seem to forget that most Saints fans (including myself) had written this season off in terms of trophies. It was [isupposed[/i to be a campaign in which we brought through the kids so any difficulties brought about by such were already factored in.

Personally, I'd much rather see a promising kid try and fail occasionally (along with the consequences insofar as results) than continue to crash into an evolutionary dead end such as Meli.

Alas, the majority of our team on Saturday night had not played against Leeds in a GF before. Wello, Wilkin, Jammer, Robes and Meli were the only ones.

I do agree though that we need an injection of new people, preferably prop forwards with aggression.

But we are still going to need some good psychology to get over the pressure that will be on us again should we reach our 7th consecutive GF next season. Some of our young players now have experienced two consecutive losses, which isn't good.

However, this year I am firmly of the opinion that we were cheated; cheated by injuries. For that 20 minutes after halftime we looked better for it than at any other loss. Had Wello, Shenny and Lomax remained fit, I really do think we would have won that match. I haven't thought that previously (although in 2009 we did compete).

Utter, utter hogwash. Throw a team full of promising youngsters onto the pitch at the start of a season and you'll end up with a team full of shattered has-beens fit only for the National Leagues by the end of it. A blend of experience is crucial in developing youth and it's madness to try to suggest otherwise frankly.



You may have thought that - I didn't FWIW. I was widely ridiculed last season on the knuckle-scraper Saints' site for suggesting that we still had at least as good a chance in the playoffs as anyone else after the Wire and Harlequins defeats, when everyone else was in full-in doom and gloom meltdown mode. Who feels smug now?

Anyway, I think that proves that I know what I'm talking about to at least some degree, so maybe you'd better pay more attention

21 appearences, 12 tries, 14 try assists? Last minute winner against Cas?

He's been great for us through the season and looked like his days of being the scape goat had passed.

I will say through, perhaps shunting [ihim[/i round when players got injured wasn't the best idea, given we have seen his problems with concentration. Centre to wing to other centre, wasn't it?

It was basically centre to opposite wing. Initially Lomax went on the wing, which would have been fine had he not been hobbling badly. His appearance on the right wing was pretty quick following Shenton's exit, and signalled the deathknell to our hopes. The only other option Royce had was putting Wheeler on the wing. That was a risk too given that he's hardly played at first grade in months, isn't a winger and it was on HIS opposite side too. Meli should have put on his best game. He's a very experienced player and he's also supposed to be a recognised winger. So the task should not have been too much for him. But as ever it was.

Although it didn't save the day, alas, the rationale behind the back on the bench was well and truly justified on Saturday. Had we not had to stick Meli next to a misfiring Soliola with a penalty machine in Moore and a limping Lomax bringing up the right edge, we had the best chance of winning a GF since 2006. Fooking tragic it is.

Congratulations on answering the wrong question. I thought I was talking about Wheeler and Armstrong. Two kids who [ialready[/i have a good deal of experience. Wheeler was likely to play a considerable amount of game time anyway.

Perceived wisdom says throwing inexperienced kids at the first team is doomed to failure. But perceived wisdom is very often wrong. Human beings are highly complex organisms - physically and mentally. No one can predict with certainty whether player X (provided he is good enough to be a candidate) is likely to make it or not.



You suggested the team that competed the preceding Grand Final might just make the playoffs? Round of applause, Mystic Meg.

Expect him to take two backs on the bench next year

Errr, no.... I predicted we had as good a chance of making the final and winning the whole darn thing as anyone else did - not just that we'd make the playoffs smarty trousers... Now who's answering the wrong question

Of just put one on there who might actually contribute. Leon or Armstrong should have been on there. Or Chris Flannery, who was apparently fit.

Fully agree with this...

Although hopefully the introduction of Laffranchi, Hohaia, Flanagan and Perry (if he decides to play this season) will provide this injection and a bit more aggression (Perry & Laffranchi especially)

With the outgoings of Graham, Pryce, Eastmond, Ashurst, Moore, Armstrong we should have room on the cap to bring another face in should somebody become available and with another year under the belts of Foster, Makinson, Lomax, Gaskell, Magennis we should be more experienced and prepared next year (in theory)

This is hardly some feat of genius. It's not like we're competing in the NRL where just about any team is a GF candidate. Given that there were only 4 or possibly 5 teams in with a shout and the fact that the top two often do not contest the final our chances of making it were excellent.

Sorry but you're not having this one matey - after the Wire and Harlequins defeats EVERYONE on both this site and the inbred-infested alternative insisted we were utterly c**p, massively inferior to both Wigan and Warrington in every single possible way and would have no chance of getting to O/T, or even avoiding defeat against either of them at any stage of the season by less than 30 points. Some uber numpties were even mocking our chances of a playoff place for chrissakes.... I however was a lone voice of reason way back then arguing at the time that we would be better than Wigan and about as good as Wire come the playoffs once the injured/out of sorts players returned and found form and the young 'uns got some more experience under their belt (my predictions were actually if anything conservative in that we still reached O/T and should have won the final even with many of those absentees missing throughout). I was loudly mocked and had numerous sloped foreheads furrowed and knuckles scraped along the ground in my direction for saying so by all and sundry. I was right and they were wrong. Ha, etc.

Were you predicting a more than likely O/T appearance immediately after the Harlequins defeat as I was on certain Saints-themed discussion sites, hmmmm? I think not...

I'm sure there were plenty of people who were writing off Saints' chances. But EVERYONE here and on Redvee? No. And you've no evidence to support your claim.



Do yourself a favour and get your head out of the clouds.

[i"Lone voice of reason". [/iI mean, do you REALLY believe this nonsense. Talk about delusions of grandeur.

The only posts I recall making when Saints were at their lowest point were in relation to Eastmond and the necessity of removing him from the equation before team spirit collapsed completely. But even at this time given the strength in Saints' squad we were extremely unlikely to finish below fourth or possibly fifth. No matter how bad things got the majority of SL clubs were in a far worse position due to the lack of available talent in SL. Which meant we were always in with a shout of the final - especially if the injury situation cleared up toward the back end of the season.

Whatever... You and me and whoever else might have had the sense and intellect to know all that way back then, but noone but me was posting it at the time, certainly not on the kneejerk knuckle-draggers' site. All I know is I received an overwhelming torrent of personal abuse and ridicule for arguing that we would be at least the equal of anyone come the playoffs. I also got similar treatment on there at about the same time for suggesting that the whole league campaign was a pointless waste of time, results were all meaningless and final league position offered precious little advantage to any of the top 3 or 4 finishing sides at all... And to think I for some reason hung around with those lowlifes for another 4 months before I came on here instead - I just look back and laugh at it all now...