terrible game. Was quite entertaining watching the Salford lot getting more and more irritated though, when Ashurst scored one guy sprinted down all the stairs to scream at the ref LMAO. I thought we were gonna get another riot , ironically there's probably less stuff worth smashing up in Widnes than the hole that is Salford so I doubt anyone would have noticed.

250-300 fans ha!!!

100-150 rather quiet ones, a few less after the stewards were finished. Makes me glad I live on the other side of Manchester.

Stop posting and take that computer back to the store you looted it from.

I could hear them well enough in the North Stand. Far better support than ours was during the game.

I thought the attendance for was was effectively a nothing game at a stadium that has not been universally loved was pretty decent.

Personally I find it childish that so many are bothered about other people and what they do at a match. They paid their money for f's sake if they want to just be entertained and clap well good on them. Telling people what they should or shouldnt do once they have paid good money. Well thats just socialism or fashism depending on which side of the fence you sit.

The noise arguement is a red herring anyways weve not been that noisy for years even at knowsley road. Our away support tends to be far noisier than our home. Maybe thats because all the rabble sit together at away games and are a bit disperced at home games.

With the way seating is allocated in new stadia it always takes time for the crowd to find its new voice and this year was just a stop gap.

Does anybody know what Roby's stats were for metres last night. Think he needed arlound 180 metres to break the 5000 metres (record). Just wondered if he did it with a game to spare.

So you finally starting to agree that we've no creativity in halves?

It will cost us in the play offs and in 2012

You'll note I said 'able or willing'. The willing applied to Leon Pryce, whose shirt last night was once again pristine white because he is not getting involved. Lomax had a shocker of a game last night, banana kick and drop goal excluded, and so I don't know yet whether he is an able or a willing.

What I do know though is that at Quins I'd like to see Lomax and Gaskell back together again because I don't think we're going to see anything from Pryce after all. May as well go with two willing halfbacks even if neither of them is able at this stage in their careers. Although I'm not sure how much of a coincidence it is that in two consecutive weeks Gaskell has come on for 10 minutes and in both those 10 minutes he has managed to score a try.

But honestly, do you think our halves are good enough and creative enough to win the grand final and for 2012?

IMO whatever combination we go with this year or next we will lack direction, creativity and kicking game.

Weve had a few pretty tight games this year and IMO the lack of a top quality halfback would have made the difference.

Pete would you sell Lomax? Would you not have signed Gaskell for 2 years. Its easy to suggest that some one is not good enough but Im yet to hear a reasonable arguement.

Saying someone is no good is the same as shouting at the ref. It makes you feel good but does not actually effect anything. You can argue that Lomax and Gaskell may be world beaters in a few years but unless they are played they will not improve. But then playing them people say they are not good enough yet. There was alot of clamour that we must keep Pryce a a month ago. Yet he has not been the saviour and there is an arguement that with lomax andf pryce our kicking game is far reduced and as a combination they do not compliment each other.

Personally I think Gaskell is great yeh he throws a few duff ones and gets caught out at times in defence. But at his peak that was also said of Longy. I think Lomax offers an evasive running stle that while not as blistering as Eastmond offers a similar threat. I also think Wheeler has a gift if he is ever fit.

If we are going to bin these prospects. Which federation based players would you pick? Overseas we are full and overseas we cvan only get what the NRL dont want. Therefore we either grow our own or buy in from another club.

We are at the bottom I would say of our downward curve. Other clubs will have this too when there current halfbacks get too old and there are no quota players left.

Warrington are invested in Myler.
Wigan have tomkins

Everyone else is looking around and weve let a few go. If we dont invest in youth then we have to buy in.

You've missed my point. I've never said get shut of lomax or Gaskell. I'm saying we need quality experienced halfback to partner either lomax or Gaskell.

I'm more than happy to go with the two of them but everyone better be prepared to stick by them because it will he 2/3 years before they will achieve there potential if the live up to it at all.

We are so in urgent need of direction and creativity it's unreal. Even last night we couldn't break a poor Salford team down with having massive amount of field position and possession.

Just think about it.

That's a loaded question. I think the answer all depends on what you mean by the word 'creative' and what you consider to be 'good enough'.

I think Gaskell has improved enormously this season. But I'm a teacher and so I may see things differently from you. As a teacher I would not expect a child to write with as much flair or technical ability at the end of KS1 as I would at the end of KS2 (given the right talent and degree of application). Likewise, I wouldn't expect Gaskell to be able to perform to the same standards in his debut year at senior level as I would a few years from now. Gaskell is showing great positional sense, he has good hands, he is great under a high ball, he has pace, he has demonstrated an ability to think on his feet in a pressure situation (his dropgoal against Hudds at Widnes), he has a great kicking game which he is developing. His defence midfield is very good although he still has to work on his goal line defence. He can be seen giving directions on the field. He appears to be level headed, not prone to panic like Lomax.

Does all that make him good enough for a Grand Final this year and into 2012? I don't know because he hasn't played in a Grand Final yet and next year is still ahead of us. But he has been on the losing side against the top two more than once and he is bound to have learned a lot from those experiences; probably more than he learned in the wins he has enjoyed. Is he creative? I think he is because he has created some smashing tries and breaks, as well as having the vision to score himself.

Is he another Eastmond? No. He isn't a flashy halfback. He isn't even a cheeky one. He is a practical one. He would be a great foil for a cheeky, flashy halfback. We need both in our side. But both need to be creative too and I think Gaskell IS creative. I also think he has shown enough potential and development this season to be given the opportunity in the Grand Final should we get there.

I'm less sure of Lomax.

And don't get me started on Pryce! Now that he's made up his mind to clear off he seems to have, well, cleared off!

Have to admit,song of the night goes to the Salford fans 'Its just like playing in church . sssssshhhhh'

Creative = create opportunities for our players. Having some unpredictability so the opposition for once do t know what we doing unlike now.

What's good enough = for a team like saints who's in the grand final almost every year, I'd expect at least to make the final.

Gaskell and to a lesser degree Lomax fits your meaning of creative.

We aren't the same team even as last year. We'll be very fortunate indeed to get to the Grand Final this year. I think our time for yearly visits is over. But that has nothing to do with Gaskell or Lomax.

for me gaskell is playing better than leon at the moment and should be starting leon aint showed nothing since coming back to play before gaskell or lomax

I'll try and out it another way fir you then...

Why can't we break teams down when we are getting in good field position and tons of possession ?

Wigan and Warrington would have put 60 on Salford last night.

Because we are operating with one functioning halfback in Lomax. Pryce has gone on vacation. I've been deeply disappointed in Pryce. He came on for his first session back and had an immediate impact on both sides of the pitch and we looked like a coherent team again. He was ok against Cas too. But since then he's just disappeared and I think that is because he made his mind up to go to the Dragons.

Personally, I'd be happy just to kick Pryce into touch like we did Eastmond and play with the yoof. We aint going to do much better with Pryce who can't be ahsed so we may as well go with those who have worked hard to get us to third.

Although I'd probably swap Lomax for Wheeler.

So would we had we managed to keep hold of the bloody ball for longer than five minutes. The coach has been sorely lacking in fixing that problem and it is costing us.

But lomax and Gaskell have been the halves most of the year.

I knew I would regret discussing this with you because you don't actually want to discuss it. So, just to make you happy and NOT because I believe this (because I don't) I will stating the following:

St Pete. Our halves are rubbish and we are never going to win anything ever again especially if that fullback who can't catch a bomb Hohaia plays at seven.

Is that ok now?

Goodnight!

At last she sees the light.

Goodnight

Im thinking of cancelling my account so we may have missed our time

yes they are good enough and creative enough for 2012. And they will have an experienced half back in Lance.

For me the problems start and end with Simmons, a really nice guy, but bereft of ideas about the modern game, there is not one facet of the game we have improved on since he came, (apart from injuries and confusing everyone by playing 16 players out of the 17 in most games, great strategy this!!!) No wonder Eastmund, Graham and Pryce are going.

Yeah, right!

Bit harsh that, having no influential half backs for most of the season has been our problem, hardly Simmons fault. Edmonds and Graham were on there way pre Simmonds arrival and Pryce probably decided a 3 year deal was the better option.
Our backward step this year is lack of creativity and winning mentality, very difficult to achieve though when most of the key players are sat in the stands watching the game.
Playing in a mediocre super league has helped us achieve 3rd, Wigan and Warrington still fear us, a dip in form from these two, Saints could be waiting for the opportunity of success.