Was that the kick through? That was the only thing he did that WASN'T average.

Dire in defence, dire with the ball, his decision making was shocking and his kicking game was shocking. At one point, he aimed a kick for the left hand corner (looking on from the west stand), completely mis-kicked it and it ended up going the other way.

Writing was on the wall last week. I came on here and said he looked terrible, but people just put it down to it being his first game. You could instantly tell he isn't good enough.

He looked reluctant to pack down, I think one of our forwards went AWOL and we couldn,t form a scrum to pack down and stop the clock.
I,m sure it happened a second time and Gardner packed down as well.

Dont forget we've got Lomax, Roby, Soliola, Meli, Wilkin, Flanagan, Clough, Wheeler, Swift and Walker all to come back. Whilst we still won't be top bracket it won't be half as bad as it is now.

Lomax, Roby and Wilkin are the key ones.

Soliola?

Why don't you list some injured under 12s as well, just to give yourself more comfort?

Of those Roby, Lomax, Wilkin and Soliola are meaningful absences. The rest are none events. Would Wigan or Leeds lose to Widnes if they had four out?

Lomas at 1, Wilkin at 7 to provide a bit of leadership and experience and Roby at 9 will make a difference, even without them we should be beating Widnes though.

When Lomax returns I'd leave Makinson fullback and play Lomax 6 and Wilkin 7. I'd play Hohaia 9 until Roby is back and try to scrap our way into the playoffs.

Referring to injuries:

We have key players out, but we should have been able to put a side together. Was the pack really that light?

I'm not going to join the sack Brown bandwagon, but he needs to get a grip. I think the time for experimentation is now over and we need to play consistent basic rugby league. The half situation has been mostly out of his hands, but he should never have done the Gaskell Howarth deal. No matter the difficulties with Gaskell, he would have provided some kind of anchor at half, that the fly by night half's cannot.

Even if he was not going to sign for Saints next year, you play him until he is gone.

Don't forget Widnes had Hanbury, Cross, ah van missing to tonight.

Sacking Brown isn't the answer for me. The players are the problem. Give Brown a chance to sign some players of his own, see how they perform, then judge him.

Saints have just put this up, bad timing.

Agreed

It's not something I'd be doing right now either, but how long has he got realistically? If we lose the next 3, taking it to 8 defeats on the bounce, could he survive that?

Usually no, but I think sacking him would be unfair considering he hasn't personally brought in any of the players. They have to take responsibility and buck their ideas up big style

Usual screaming nonsense. We have no 1, 6, 7 or 9 at the moment and many key players missing elsewhere so of course we're going to be struggling. There's not a coach on earth who would have gotten us many more wins of late. I'll start getting worried if we're not winning regularly by July, not May. We'll still make the top 8 easily (top 4 might be pushing it if the injury situation doesn't ease soon) and will hit the playoffs fresh, rested and ready to turn over the first 2 teams we meet and then get knocked out in the semi by Wire or Leeds because we're rendered one-dimensional with no halves and can only barge. Much the same as last year. Progress I think they call it.

I think when we're suggesting that things will improve having Clough, Wheeler, Swift and Walker back, demonstrates just how low our expectations have sunk.

Wheeler and Swift bring a spark, Walker's solid but brings nothing spectacular and Clough offers nothing for me. It's Lomax, Soliola and Roby who'll make the difference though.

Yep.

Sad, isn't it?

Not shouting for Brown to go! but didn't McManus declare he would search the world to get the best coach?

Nathan Brown simply does not inspire me, I recorded BBC North West last night for a feature at the end about a young kid I support and they reported live from the ground and spoke to Brown and Betts, the latter in his club jacket & tie, Brown without a tie, his shirt collar outside his jacket as people would wear in the Saturday Night Fever era, would that inspire me? No! that same attitude comes over in after match media interviews, does not seem to care just excuses.

I don't remember that but I do remember him saying that he only wanted Brown. He didn't interview anyone else. That's a ludicrous way to do things but typical of McManus. He didn't interview candidates for the CEO position either. He just gave it to Rush. He's operating an old boys' club rather than a business environment and it is foolish.

Thanks, Dr Pangloss.

I think you're very much mistaken if you think we'll still make the top 8 easily. London and Widnes are not good sides, yet they've both beaten us. They are the sort of "guaranteed" points which would normally mean that Saints could lose matches against the top teams and still make the playoffs easily. Yet we lost them. Today, we'll probably be out of the top 8. Look up, and the clubs above us are all, without question, significantly better than us.

Wigan, Warrington, Leeds, Catalans, Huddersfield are all so far ahead of us in quality that we're playing a different league. Hull, Hull KR and Bradford are teams we might be able to compete with if we had all our players back - but there's currently no sign that our top two, Lomax and Roby, are coming back any time soon. I think there's a very high chance that we will finish in the bottom 5, and that we will not make the play-offs, for the first time ever.

For Saints, that is disgraceful. Yet some fans are in full-on delusional mode. They keep telling themselves how great our youngsters are like Walmsley, Percival and Thompson, and how our injuries are responsible, with some even claiming that missing Clough is making a difference, FFS !

We need to be realistic. Look at our playing roster and ask yourself which players would currently be selected in the top teams if they were on the rosters at those clubs :

Roby and Lomax - who are both injured.
Soliola
Would Walmsley and Thompson get a game at the top clubs ahead of their current packs ? Maybe. Probably not.
Makinson ? Probably not, given the fullbacks they have

You could argue that this is only because some good players are suffering a major loss of form. Puletua has been great in the past but isn't now. Turner and Manu have been effectively non-contributory since they arrived. Hohaia and Laffranchi are shadows of their former selves. Wilkin and Wellens come into the effort-but-no-reward category. Jones, Greenwood are gap-fillers of the sort we used to have just one of, on the bench, in less-pressured games. Now they're mainstays of the team. Ashe ? Every time I've seen him he's struggled to be mediocre, not just this season either.

Even if - and I think it's a long-shot, but let's be generous - even if those players are good enough to compete, but are just suffering a loss of form, then the next question is obvious : why the hell are so many players all suffering a loss of form together ? Why is it that they are all, collectively, unable to put together even basic attacking moves ? Why is it that the whole line doesn't even show the aggression, linespeed or commitment of an amateur side in defence ? If that's not the coach, then I don't know what is.

We've lost 5 on the trot, and 6 of the last 7. In fact, if we want to make the full season point, we've played 15 competitive games this season and won just 6. Those six wins include just 1 against a team in the top half of the table - Warrington. Otherwise, the only teams we've beaten are Widnes, Salford, Castleford, Wakefield and Bradford.

This is not acceptable. There are players on big money at Saints, and there are internationals all over the park. Injuries simply cannot be used to endlessly excuse what is clearly a lack of effort, commitment and professionalism from the players on the pitch. And that is down to the coach. Brown needs to put a rocket up the players, and McManus needs to put a rocket up Brown. And we fans need to stop making excuses and accepting standards which would have been unthinkable for the last 15 years.

McManus also said we would have the best rugby stadium in the land, we don't, he lied.

He also said, we would have a team to grace our great stadium, we don't, he lied.

I don't believe much he says these days.