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| Its good for Wigan and RL that they are getting their act together on the junior front.
I certainly expect them to be a formidable first team force in years to come as the cream of those youngsters come through into the Wigan first team.
We should not lose site of the fact though that things are not as clear cut in Wigans favour as they appear.
For example Rogues comments on Wigan having a lot of players eligible for under 18's RL. However so did Saints.
You also have to remember that we had a 19 year old in Foster making his senior debut.
We also have Lomax who is only 19 out injured who is a 1st team player already. As well as Wheeler, Eastmond, Dixon and Ashurst who are 1st team regulars at just 20 years of age.
We have Ste Tyrer and Jacob Emmitt, both 21 years old on loan, Matty Smith 22 years old on loan
Compare that to the so called Wigan super 1st team youngsters
Paul Prescott 24 year old
Joel Tomkins 23 years old
Eamonn o Carroll 22 years old
Mike Mcllorum 22 years old
Darell Goulding 22 years old
Harrison Hansen 24 years old
Lee Mossop 21 years old
Shaun Ainscough 20 years old (on loan)
liam farrell 19 years old (on loan)
Sam Tomkins 21 years old
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| Quote ="The Chair Maker"Its good for Wigan and RL that they are getting their act together on the junior front.
I certainly expect them to be a formidable first team force in years to come as the cream of those youngsters come through into the Wigan first team.
We should not lose site of the fact though that things are not as clear cut in Wigans favour as they appear.
For example Rogues comments on Wigan having a lot of players eligible for under 18's RL. However so did Saints.
You also have to remember that we had a 19 year old in Foster making his senior debut.
We also have Lomax who is only 19 out injured who is a 1st team player already. As well as Wheeler, Eastmond, Dixon and Ashurst who are 1st team regulars at just 20 years of age.
We have Ste Tyrer and Jacob Emmitt, both 21 years old on loan, Matty Smith 22 years old on loan
Compare that to the so called Wigan super 1st team youngsters
Paul Prescott 24 year old
Joel Tomkins 23 years old
Eamonn o Carroll 22 years old
Mike Mcllorum 22 years old
Darell Goulding 22 years old
Harrison Hansen 24 years old
Lee Mossop 21 years old
Shaun Ainscough 20 years old (on loan)
liam farrell 19 years old (on loan)
Sam Tomkins 21 years old'"
I agree its good for pies and rugby league that such good youth coming thru.
I think they have by far a better level of yougsters coming thru than saints at the moment. Lomax, wheeler and eastmond look very good but i dont think any of the others will make it to a high super league level.
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| Quote ="St pete"I think they have by far a better level of yougsters coming thru than saints at the moment. Lomax, wheeler and eastmond look very good but i dont think any of the others will make it to a high super league level.'"
Jamie Foster has only just had his first team debut. How can you write him off already? And what about Lee Gaskell, for instance, who hasn't had a debut yet or Jamie Ellis whose debut - poor lad - was when we were playing dire rugby last year but who is long term injured just now? You can't honestly write all these guys off, surely? They've either only just appeared on the scene or haven't yet had their chance.
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| IMO Foster didn't put a foot wrong last night, it would be hard to deselect him based on his performance. If Gardner and Meli are asking for new contracts, i would show them lomax and foster and probably armstrong. They will be cheaper, and are at very least no worse than Ade
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| Quote ="SaintsFan"Jamie Foster has only just had his first team debut. How can you write him off already? And what about Lee Gaskell, for instance, who hasn't had a debut yet or Jamie Ellis whose debut - poor lad - was when we were playing dire rugby last year but who is long term injured just now? You can't honestly write all these guys off, surely? They've either only just appeared on the scene or haven't yet had their chance.'"
To be honest i was on about dixon, ashurst, emmitt and mcgennis as i have seem them play a fair bit, not seen enough of foster, ellis or gaskell but we need to bring some big good forwards thru our youth.
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| Quote ="The Chair Maker"Its good for Wigan and RL that they are getting their act together on the junior front.
I certainly expect them to be a formidable first team force in years to come as the cream of those youngsters come through into the Wigan first team.
We should not lose site of the fact though that things are not as clear cut in Wigans favour as they appear.
For example Rogues comments on Wigan having a lot of players eligible for under 18's RL. However so did Saints.
You also have to remember that we had a 19 year old in Foster making his senior debut.
We also have Lomax who is only 19 out injured who is a 1st team player already. As well as Wheeler, Eastmond, Dixon and Ashurst who are 1st team regulars at just 20 years of age.
We have Ste Tyrer and Jacob Emmitt, both 21 years old on loan, Matty Smith 22 years old on loan
=#FF0000Compare that to the so called Wigan super 1st team youngsters
Paul Prescott 24 year old
Joel Tomkins 23 years old
Eamonn o Carroll 22 years old
Mike Mcllorum 22 years old
Darell Goulding 22 years old
Harrison Hansen 24 years old
Lee Mossop 21 years old
Shaun Ainscough 20 years old (on loan)
liam farrell 19 years old (on loan)
Sam Tomkins 21 years old'"
Is the above post somehow trying to dismiss the quality of the players that Wigan have brought through? Because if that's the case most of the Saints youngsters must be worse as they were spanked by the Wigan youngsters year after year at academy and reserve level.
Eastmond's a great player with a huge future, Lomax can also go onto good things as long as his carrer doesn't continue to be blighted by injurys. The jury's still out for me in regards to Wheeler, granted I don't see him as much as you Saints fans but he doesn't come over all that impressive.
As for Dixon and Ashurt you're really scraping the barrel, those lads won't make it at Saints because they aren't good enough, Mossop may be a year older but he's light years ahead of them, and that's not just down to the minute age difference, it's down to a thing called talent.
The same goes for Tyrer at Salford, the guy's defense is woeful and I very much doubt he'll have a future at Saints. Matty Smith will only make it at Saints if you lose Eastmond to RU and then you'll have no other option then to go with Smith or buy in from overseas. As for Foster other than his supeb kicking game he pretty much optomizes what we'd call a one trick pony.
Some of the Wigan players in the list you've put together won't make it at Wigan for various reasons, just like not all the players at Saints will make, but as long as both clubs keep the cream of the crops they'll do well.
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| Quote ="LovesToSpooge"Is the above post somehow trying to dismiss the quality of the players that Wigan have brought through? Because if that's the case most of the Saints youngsters must be worse as they were spanked by the Wigan youngsters year after year at academy and reserve level.
Eastmond's a great player with a huge future, Lomax can also go onto good things as long as his carrer doesn't continue to be blighted by injurys. The jury's still out for me in regards to Wheeler, granted I don't see him as much as you Saints fans but he doesn't come over all that impressive.
As for Dixon and Ashurt you're really scraping the barrel, those lads won't make it at Saints because they aren't good enough, Mossop may be a year older but he's light years ahead of them, and that's not just down to the minute age difference, it's down to a thing called talent.
The same goes for Tyrer at Salford, the guy's defense is woeful and I very much doubt he'll have a future at Saints. Matty Smith will only make it at Saints if you lose Eastmond to RU and then you'll have no other option then to go with Smith or buy in from overseas. As for Foster other than his supeb kicking game he pretty much optomizes what we'd call a one trick pony.
Some of the Wigan players in the list you've put together won't make it at Wigan for various reasons, just like not all the players at Saints will make, but as long as both clubs keep the cream of the crops they'll do well.'"
I pretty much agree with that, dixon and ashurst won't make top players which is a shame as our backrow is pretty poor with ball in the hand.
Not seen enough of foster to comment on him but eastmond, wheeler and lomax look very good.
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| Quote ="LovesToSpooge"Is the above post somehow trying to dismiss the quality of the players that Wigan have brought through? Because if that's the case most of the Saints youngsters must be worse as they were spanked by the Wigan youngsters year after year at academy and reserve level.
.'"
NO im pointing out that we arent comparing like with like.
You cant compare the performance of a 23 year old with a 20 year old and Say x teams youngsters are better.
Similarly in reserve and academy games you sometimes have to look beyond the result and look at the respective age and experience of the two sides playing.
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| Quote ="The Chair Maker"You cant compare the performance of a 23 year old with a 20 year old and Say x teams youngsters are better.
Similarly in reserve and academy games you sometimes have to look beyond the result and look at the respective age and experience of the two sides playing.'"
That's way too sensible a post for this thread.
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| Quote ="The Chair Maker"NO im pointing out that we arent comparing like with like.
You cant compare the performance of a 23 year old with a 20 year old and Say x teams youngsters are better.
Similarly in reserve and academy games you sometimes have to look beyond the result and look at the respective age and experience of the two sides playing.'"
And that's why I was surprised and delighted by yesterdays U18 and U20 results.
Ten U18's in the U20's and kids in the U18's I hadn't seen.
Some people won't agree at Wigan but Brian Noble has laid the foundations for what could be a very productive period.
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| Quote ="Rogues Gallery"Some people won't agree at Wigan but Brian Noble has laid the foundations for what could be a very productive period.'"
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| Quote ="Rogues Gallery"And that's why I was surprised and delighted by yesterdays U18 and U20 results.
Ten U18's in the U20's and kids in the U18's I hadn't seen.
Some people won't agree at Wigan but Brian Noble has laid the foundations for what could be a very productive period.'"
For other clubs as they get shunted out...
It's a pity all these great players aren't getting a chance in the first team to continue the "development".
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| Quote ="The Chair Maker"NO im pointing out that we arent comparing like with like.
You cant compare the performance of a 23 year old with a 20 year old and Say x teams youngsters are better.
Similarly in reserve and academy games you sometimes have to look beyond the result and =#FF0000look at the respective age and experience of the two sides playing.'"
Oh ok, but reading both yours and Rogues comment's both sides fielded numerous players in the under 20's who also qualify for the under 18's. Saints to my knowledge fielded no players with first team experience, while Wigan fielded only one, ala Karl Pryce.
The only players in the Wigan squad aged over 20 were Pryce and Veivers, Saints may have also fielded some players 20 years or older I don't know. What I would say is both those sides who took to the field on Saturday were pretty even and comparable, yet one side ran out convincing winners.
But I think most of the Wigan players were born a few days earlier than there Saint's counterparts, so obviously there age and maturity won them the game.
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| The reality of the youth system is that it should be about development. However, if only a few clubs are producing "teams" of the required standard then it becomes difficult to know at what stage the kids actually are, because they are not getting tested week on week.
At the end of this year the Aussie schools (U18?) are coming over. Then we may get a pointer as to what level of the likes of Rhys Evans, Lee Gaskell, Ian Thornley etc are at.
I'm sure "the eclipse" should he read this will give us a far better insight into what we are likely to face.
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| Quote ="Rogues Gallery"The reality of the youth system is that it should be about development. However, if only a few clubs are producing "teams" of the required standard then it becomes difficult to know at what stage the kids actually are, because they are not getting tested week on week.
At the end of this year the Aussie schools (U18?) are coming over. Then we may get a pointer as to what level of the likes of Rhys Evans, Lee Gaskell, Ian Thornley etc are at.
I'm sure "the eclipse" should he read this will give us a far better insight into what we are likely to face.'"
Carl Forster and Gaskell are the 2 standouts from Saints.No one else of note really from saints.
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| Carl Forster is superb and could be another James Graham imo. I keep saying it but look out for our U15's this year.
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| Quote ="Loyal Saint"Carl Forster is superb and could be another James Graham imo. I keep saying it but look out for our U15's this year.'"
Is Carl Forster the hooker or am I getting mixed up with another Carl? If it is then he didn't impress me much last year but he may have been playing under age.
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| Quote ="Rogues Gallery"Is Carl Forster the hooker or am I getting mixed up with another Carl? If it is then he didn't impress me much last year but he may have been playing under age.'"
No, hes a backrower but can play anywhere in the forwards, but hes never played hooker. Hes a fantastic prospect and the penrith coach said hes the best british player of that age group he has seen for years.
Im sure he will be a wigan fan though eh rogues
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| Quote ="Codarmysaint"No, hes a backrower but can play anywhere in the forwards, but hes never played hooker. Hes a fantastic prospect and the penrith coach said hes the best british player of that age group he has seen for years.
Im sure he will be a wigan fan though eh rogues
'"
I'm sure he must be if he has any sense
I was getting mixed up with Karl Ashall who is a hooker, apologies.
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| Quote ="Rogues Gallery"I'm sure he must be if he has any sense
I was getting mixed up with Karl Ashall who is a hooker, apologies.'"
Carl Forster does actually support Wigan but it's because he's family are from Wigan, he doesent actually follow them.
He as curly hair and is currently playing as a impact forward but he as the same physique as a young Graham. He's been selected for England U18.
Kark Ashall wont make it imo.
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| I'm amazed at the number of people who are ALREADY writing off Dixon and Ashurst. Look, ANY forward who is competitive at SL level BEFORE he reaches his final growth phase (depending on the player - somewhere between 21 and early 24) is going to be a good SL player.
That final phase - when the player seems to "fill out" almost overnight - is essential and can add anywhere up to a stone and a half to a body frame. For instance, look at Scully before age 23 and after. The difference in power, explosiveness and yardage is practically black and white.
Right now both these kids are performing well. Indeed, they are even weighing in with a respectable number of tries and assists. But just wait till they fill out. The contrast will be prodigious.
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| Quote ="Mugwump"I'm amazed at the number of people who are ALREADY writing off Dixon and Ashurst. Look, ANY forward who is competitive at SL level BEFORE he reaches his final growth phase (depending on the player - somewhere between 21 and early 24) is going to be a good SL player.
That final phase - when the player seems to "fill out" almost overnight - is essential and can add anywhere up to a stone and a half to a body frame. For instance, look at Scully before age 23 and after. The difference in power, explosiveness and yardage is practically black and white.
Right now both these kids are performing well. Indeed, they are even weighing in with a respectable number of tries and assists. But just wait till they fill out. The contrast will be prodigious.'"
Agreed.
In fact, I'm amazed at how quickly some fans write off young players per se. It's like they expect them all to be Murphys overnight.
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| Quote ="Mugwump"I'm amazed at the number of people who are ALREADY writing off Dixon and Ashurst. Look, ANY forward who is competitive at SL level BEFORE he reaches his final growth phase (depending on the player - somewhere between 21 and early 24) is going to be a good SL player.
That final phase - when the player seems to "fill out" almost overnight - is essential and can add anywhere up to a stone and a half to a body frame. For instance, look at Scully before age 23 and after. The difference in power, explosiveness and yardage is practically black and white.
Right now both these kids are performing well. Indeed, they are even weighing in with a respectable number of tries and assists. But just wait till they fill out. The contrast will be prodigious.'"
Agree. Dixon and Ashurst have done OK for me. Sure they're no world beaters yet and maybe they may never reach that stage, but without being given a run in the side and given time to develop they'll never be that.
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| Another poor result for our u18,s we lost 34-32 against Leeds away. That twice in a row we've conceded 34 points.
Plus point is that josh jones scored 4 trys our England youth captain is a class act. He is still only 16. I think that's 7. Tries in 3 games for him. Very classy centre.
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| Quote ="Loyal Saint"Another poor result for our u18,s we lost 34-32 against Leeds away. That twice in a row we've conceded 34 points.
Plus point is that josh jones scored 4 trys our England youth captain is a class act. He is still only 16. I think that's 7. Tries in 3 games for him. Very classy centre.'"
It's always difficult with the junior levels (18's and 20's) because you are never sure of the relative ages of the teams.
For example Saints may have had mainly 16 year olds in their teams whereas Leeds may have had the majority if their team 18 years old.
A couple of weeks ago Wigan played most of their second year lads (U18's) v Salford and and racked up 78 points.
A week later they played most of their 16 year olds and just beat Wire. As we have said many times it's about development at this age but the games do need to be competitive.
Will, that defeat make it difficult for Saints to make the top half of the "split"?
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