I don't remember seeing him act as our last line of defence at any time though. He was missing in action for all the tries. On one occasion he left the line completely open instead of hanging back and doing what he used to do so well.

I have actively defended Wello on these boards and I certainly don't blame our defeat on him alone (or on any one player - it was a team effort to grab defeat from the jaws of victory in such spectacular fashion) but he made us worse, not better, in attack and defence and therefore should be dropped.

This reminds me of the days when another legendary Saints fullback (Phil Veivers) no longer had the pace to be a regular starter. Saints managed to extend his career by another twelve months employing him off the bench where he could cover any position on the pitch excluding prop.

It is obvious that Wellens can't continue at number one. But he certainly retains enough ability to be an emergency utility player. Given the number of injuries in the modern game I think such a role is a no-brainer. Unfortunately, this would mean Royce dropping his tactic of a non-playing 17th substitute.

Completely agree. He still has a role within the team, just not at full back. I'd personally drop Lance back so we can keep Gaskell/Lomax in the halves as I thought they played very well last night. Makinson and Gardner on the wings for now to give Foster some time in the 20's to try and get his game back on track.

I don't think we missed Meli at all either.

Imagine how Wellens feels.

About ten years ago he had pryce, long, scully, cunningham all playing with him to help. They all complimented each other and there was never any pressure and there was a tonne of trophies!

Now he's surrounding by moronic nancy boys and incompetent over the hill aussies. He is one of the only great players in the team. Yes he's getting older and hasn't got the same amount of skill but he's also got double or triple the pressure, as no one else will cover for him. Talk about kicking a man when he's down. And now all the 'fans' are blaming their loss of form on him. Spitting and kicking a man when he's down.

Talk about entitles fans. You don't have a great team this year (good but not great) you have no spine and the only player with the balls and sway to raise the team is currently burning himself in australia. Instead of blaming one man (who also happens to have been a great servant to your club and love you guys through and through) accept you are turning into a alte nineties wolves. Poor youbg players, over the hill aussies and, if you're lucky, a couple of really good players to get you through.

Are you saying that Lomax, Gaskell, Makinson and Wheeler are all poor players. Every single one of them is better than anything you have coming through at Warrington.

Lomax is good.

What's your opinion on Gaskell, Makinson and Wheeler?

For my money I think Makinson is one of the best.

Lomax - 1
Gaskell (Volldemort) -6
Lance -7
Back on the bench - Wellens...

I'd be happy with that too.

Makinson is a better fullback than winger and, if i'm not dropping a little bait and being overtly wire bias for irony, he is a good fullback (no where near great from what I have seen though). I would describe him as more Riley than Hodgeson. Better than Pat Richards but will never be a Greensheilds. But he is the best of the new crop of saints youngsters

I think I have said somewhere that Gaskell will NEVER be a half. I may be wrong on that one but he doesn't look mind blowing. We could put that down to him being a youngster but last year he was one of the weakest players i think I had seen in a while and I saw him a few times. Good kicking game and... that's about it. Also a light wind looks like it could knock him over.

Wheeler... well firstly I think I have a johnny from when i was 13 that is both more reliable and sturdier than him. He is a half playing in the centres and not doing an amazing job there. He isn't massive, so I don't know where these injuries are coming from. I think so far he has looked disinterested and, I would wager, will be one of the better centres in Wigan's super league history (considering the drought ATM he will become good and will appear to save them)

That was my fair and balanced assessment.

On the note you raised before (I assume as an angry retort) I think that Cooper, Evans and maybe Harrison (if we include him) are better than at least two of those and further on, as you say coming through, when they are integrated further in the team, GOB, Evans, Laithwaite and Dwyer will give them a run for their money and could quite easily trump them. I would speak to SEB on our board if you want a true reflection of the Wolves academy.

It really is an out of date notion that Wolves can't create youngsters.

No one takes pleasure in pointing out the fact that Wellens' age-related deficiencies are costing the team. So let's put that to bed right now. Regarding the team - to be honest I don't think there's an awful lot wrong with it.Many people are pointing fingers at the pack - but when I look at other SL teams (including the better ones) I don't see anything to be jealous of. LMS, Perry (when fit), Laffranchi, Clough and Puletua is as good a front row as I could hope for. Our backline is considerably more threatening in terms of speed and skill than two years ago.

Saints have the players to be successful. Unfortunately they are not functioning as a cohesive unit. Part of the problem can be attributed to lack of experience in the halves. I don't think Lomax is the future in terms of the scrum half position. But he can do the job for now. Gaskell still hasn't matured physically and there is a lot of pressure on him to be the team's thinker. Too much for my liking. If Hohaia was given some kind of assurance that he would be playing in the halves for the life of me I cannot understand why Simmons didn't start him. Considering that he hasn't played there consistently in the NRL he needs time to a) reacquaint himself with the position and b) learn how to integrate himself with our backs. He can't do that off the bench.

The single biggest issue is the lack of direction. Every top side has at least ONE player whose role it is to make sure the team retains focus. It's very easy for players to get delusions of grandeur and start flinging the ball about like Wally Lewis. When this happens you need someone like a Shaun Edwards or a Paul Sculthorpe to intervene and remind everyone of the primary goal - winning. I mean, sure - flashy rugby near your own goal line might lead to a try. But what are the odds? Ditto penalties. Clocking the opposing prop forward because he ran over your team mate might make you feel fantastic and get the crowd going - but if on the next set of six they score what's the point?

Last night I counted two, possibly three moments when a Saints player appeared to analyse the flow of the game, realise it wasn't productive and intervene to change it. In the past when we often had several leaders on the pitch at a time (Sculthorpe, Joynt, Martyn, Cunningham, Long, Graham, Lyon etc.) this was never a problem. Now it clearly is.

I think that is a fair assessment in all honesty. With regards to Gaskell, whilst he may not be a show stopper he has a very good all round game. He just needs a bit more bulk.

I had forgot about Harrison to be honest, looks a very good player and I was disappointed to see him injured, he could have pushed for an England spot. Cooper I think is a solid player but more of a grafter than anything else and Evans does look a good prospect but I wouldn't say any better than Makinson. Better than Foster though.

I haven't seen enough of O'Brien, Laithwaite and Dwyer to comment in all honesty.

That sounds fair. Cooper at the end of last season and the start of this season has looked a new player. I was worried last season that he wasn't going to make it and I was frustrated that the best players (in the first team) from the academy were from Wales/ Warrington and Cumbria/ Warrington. I wanted a Roby (a star that plays for his true home town club)

I think a good example of Cooper (and to an extent Evans)'s abilities is to look at the last try in Hull game.

With less than a minute on the clock after the drop out and when we really needed a miracle, Cooper moves what looks like 20 metres down with a load of players around him and then he offloads. It was, and I know this is heracy here, Jammeresque.

Trust me, there is nothing I want more than Saints to churn out great players and produce exciting rugby.

I do have a soft spot in my heart for saints (now the streak is well and truly put to bed). That is something I will never have for Wigan or their laughable Ultras.

I would also like to say, as I have in many other places, Lomax is brilliant.

Better than most youngsters in super league and is as humble as anyone. The one player I would move hell and high water for to have at Wire (including Tomkins)

I'm not sure "bulk" is the right word. The implication is he needs to hit the weights, gorge himself on protein shakes and such. I'm sure he's doing more than enough of that at the moment. The problem is he hasn't hit his final growth stage. You see this time and again with youngsters. They're as thin as a plank up to the age of 20/22 (depending on genetics) and then - almost overnight - they pile on 8-12 pounds and flesh out.

I've read a few pieces about Dixon training hard and his performance improving. I've no doubt the kid has trained hard - but the reason he's suddenly become far more dominant is he's gone through the last growth phase before becoming a fully grown adult.

We just have to be patient with Gaskell. His time will come and believe me - 8-12 pounds wrapped around this kid will turn him into something special.

Read the discussion with jdrocket, I'm sure you'll find it fair.

Also instead of hiding behind emoticons why don't you put forward a reasonable argument as jdrocket did?

Name names. With the exception of Evans, I've not seen anything from the youthful Warrington backs (Those that came through Warrington's academy) to match those. Who am I missing?

got to agree with BackrowSaint

Forever In Radlinski's Shadow

Sorry missed this post until now.

Cooper sounds a bit like Dixon has been progressing this year? Was solid but unspectacular last year but is starting to make some good line breaks and offering another dimension to his game?

Evans could turn out to be quite handy, his support and offload for Ratchford's try against Broncos(?) was superb.

Would this be former Man of Steel, Pat Richards, who has topped the try scoring lists in both The NRL and Superleague, been superleague's top points scorer, not once but 4 times, one of a select group of players to win Granf Finals in both hemispheres has recently become Wigan's 3rd highest points scorer of all time? Hilarious!

Please tell me you aren't a Wigan fan? Acrually, no unless you started watching rugby in 2010, you know that you are talking out of your .

Pat richards is one of the worst fullbacks Wigan have ever had. Fact!

Either learn to read or learn your facts.

Yeah. That's a good parralel. I've always been a fan of dixon. He has the right shape and mindset for the game. I think cooper's run at LF (I think) has helped him at prop. He wasthere at the end of last season and with harrison injured he may well take that position again. I would rather have coops there than bridge (who I think is the best centre in SL again) also, it feels great being able to say that one academy player can cover another, injured, academy player and they both be great in that position.

I think the try you are talking about won the try of the month from sky. Evans is looking more at home in the team every week.

I think it'd be fair to say it's been an interesting opening to the season. I thought of a fun point today. After longy left for Hull. The first game was against sts at hull in the fog and sts lost. After pryce left for cats he won the first game against them.

Thinking back to when saints was the best side, everything started with wello. He used to beat the first man on every kick return that put us on the front foot but now wello is stopped dead which puts us on the back foot from the start.

We even had Meli and Ade who was good at kick returns (if they caught it) but now with wello and Jamie foster both are stopped dead in the tracks.

I'd kick to these two all day as the is no danger of either breaking the line.