Saying he was great in the GF is rather over egging the pudding IMO. He was ok, and his injury was a major factor in our loss, but that was more to the loss of organisation and us having to shuffle the team around even further.

I understand the thoughts about giving him time after a major injury, the problem is that he's had half a season so far and he's not getting any better. Cunningham was given a lot of time to recover from his injury, but he was a key player, Shenton is not. How much longer do we give him until we at least take him out of the firing line to recover some confidence and to improve our team? He's adding very little at the moment.

I also wonder how much of our play not going down the right is due to a lack of confidence in him from other players. I may be way off, St Pete seems to know players and he may have more of an idea, but I can't remember a time when we've ignored one side of the pitch so much before.

I disagree in that it was his defensive strength that we missed when he went off rather than having to shuffle around. But that's history now anyway.


I doubt it as we were the same last season. I notice Robes often passes to the left and everyone else just seems to follow. That's a very simplistic way of describing the process but at Wigan today I really noticed it. I think after standing behind the sticks at Langtree Park, where we are much further away from the action, seeing the team so close as I did today meant I noticed a lot of stuff I just haven't been seeing previously.

How have the Saints managed to get themselves into this position where they are a spent force and all past their best? Maybe you should have looked to develop young players and focused on your Academy?

There's a guy who has been on the Warrington forum for years teaching us the value of this called Rogues Gallery, maybe we should put him in touch with you, his advice may help?

This "Rogues Gallery" of whom you speak sounds like a visionary. Do you think he might have knowledge of how anything and everything Wigan is better than anything and everything anywhere else when most of it is utter fantasy and noone outside of Wigan actually gives a **** anyway? That's exactly the kind of thing we need to hear more of on a Saints forum and I hope he descends on us to spread this gospel forthwith.

Not enough craft, guile, focus, calm or raw power in the opposition's 20 cost us today.

wi*an have the upper hand over us because their one-on-one defence is top drawer and gives almost nothing away. Against that, a team needs to have 3 or 4 players with that special 'something' to best their opposite number or make a half-break and slip the ball out of the tackle to an player alert and astute enough to be on their shoulder. This Saints team just don't have that. Nor do we have anywhere near enough pace to make breaks from well away from the opposition line count.

Today, the pack evened itself out. The difference was that wi*an had a halfback with genuine rugby brain who could dictate play, and real pace in the backs to exploit any gaps to the max.

We need a halfback who can orchestrate play, a pacey, powerful centre and a winger with similar attributes, an impact player to give us something extra near the line (Manu) and a bustling prop who can boss the middle (because for all that Frank, Perry and LMS are *alright*, they're just solid pros)

One of the things I have noticed is the number of times Lance goes to take up the acting half position then Roby comes in to move him out of the way and then he ends up a yard or two away from the play the ball when he should be further out as first or second receiver. Noticed this a few times yesterday and particularly at Widnes in previous round. It potentially wastes one or two plays within the set of six. Is he still in the mindset of a number nine? This contributes to the disorganisation that has previously been referred to.

and you are in denial if you think we are only a few players from a decent side.

Spot on for me, I'd also add a full back to that list too. There's holes right throughout the side and the fact of the matter is, if we're stopped around the ruck, we have no chance. We dont have the half backs to guide us around the field, we have no kicking game and our outside backs don't have the magic to create for themselves. Shenton is a trier, but I've seen no real quality from him in 1 and a half seasons. We're lacking a matchwinner in the Centres and at full back, someone who can beat a man and win a game on their own like Jamie Lyon did many times for us. All our moves completely fall down when it goes beyond our 6 and 7 should it even get past that point in the 1st place. We need a serious recruitment drive if we want to win trophies again.

I'd also add in that we've been poorly coached since Anderson left. Millward made us entertaining and exciting to watch and Anderson made us ruthless and structured, a bit like Wigan are now. Since then our standards have dropped and I'm hoping Brown can get more outr of the current lot than Potter, Simmons and Rush have. By this I mean, developing individuals within the team - forwards running onto the ball quicker and exploiting holes in the defensive line, playing to a better organised structure, defending more dominantly. These are things any players can be coached.

Out of interest how far did you think Huddersfield were from being a decent side under Jon Sharp before Nathan Brown took over?

I do agree in the sense that we are a decent coach away from becoming a decent side, but we need better players to take us to the level where we need to be.

Brown's appointment is the first step towards becoming that top side again.

I really don't understand fans falling over themselves to bash our pack. I thought it was pretty effective yesterday. Indeed, I think it's been effective in the overwhelming majority of games this season.

Yes, some forwards did drop off tackles yesterday - but most of these mistakes were in the final twenty minutes when the game seemed lost. Prior to that I thought our forwards stood up to Wigan pretty well.

Unfortunately, the same cannot be said about our backline which leaks opportunities like a busted water pipe. On reflection it was a mistake to bring back Wheeler in a game this big. Together with Shenton and Meli he made Wigan's task of breaching our defence very easy. I really can't recall any Saints side over the last twenty years which has been this woeful defending down the channels.

This problem is further exacerbated by our inability to keep opponents off us through our one-dimensional attacking and kicking which is giving them up to twenty yards per set. Wigan's kicking penned Wellens back to his goal line whereas ours regularly gave them tackle zero anywhere up to the half way mark.

I've been saying Lomax isn't a scrum half since the beginning of the season. Yes, he has the ability to unlock the weaker sides. But any team serving up a cohesive and determined defence will nullify him completely. This is not to say I think Lomax is a poor player. He's just being asked to perform a task his (copious) talents aren't suited to.

Gaskell is the future in terms of playmaking. Right now he's not physically ready to perform this task on a regular basis and I think one of the reasons he's been kept out of the side is to work on his frame. Hopefully he's bulked up a bit but we're going to have to wait until probably next season before we see any serious benefits.

Again, I think our best option is to shunt Hohaia to scrum half where he can work in tandem with Gaskell. I'd then divide the hooking responsibilities between Lomax and Roby (making us far less predictable in that area) with Roby moving to loose forward when Lomax occupies the spot.

At fullback we need to look seriously at phasing in either Makinson or possibly Swift. Josh Jones has done enough (and is physically developed enough) to warrant a long-term spot. Shenton is a waste of time right now. Yes, he's still recovering from injury - but this doesn't mean we can allow a player to continuously turn out sub-standard performances without taking action. Ditto Wheeler. I've given this lad plenty of latitude over the past few years but my patience is now at and end. I said earlier this year that he needs to cement his position this season or not at all. So far he has done little to nothing to achieve that aim. Meli? What more can be said about this guy. I simply can't think of any better symbol of Saints' failure in recruitment over the past five years than Meli. Last season he dodged a bullet by turning in some surprisingly good attacking displays in the centre but this season he's not even doing that. The guy is long past his sell-by date and we should look at other options in the academy.

Lomax is a hooker playing scrum half. He also seems to have lost a yard of pace since last year for some reason? Maybe he bulked up too much in the off-season

I bet you were fun to be with yesterday.



0 -2 and then 4 -18.
Where did you watch the second game, or was that another game "that didn't matter"?

There you have a big problem in the team IMO. They should not be dropping off in the final 20 minutes. They should be working just as hard for the full 80 because we could have pulled back two tries in that 20 minutes (assuming the ability to score, obviously). This tendency to drop off in the second half is in direct contrast to last season.

NB had Paul Anderson, already an accomplished assistant coach.

NB was able to bring in a vastly improved conditioner.

So now that Gardner, Gaskell and Foster are out of the team the witch hunt turns to Shenton.

Shenton has been the subject of negative comments for a while now. Personally I just don't think his elbow is good. That strapping is massive.

I think Shenton would be helped enormously by actually having the ball passed to him sometimes. Our playmakers don't seem to believe in the existence of our right edge.

the lack of ball to the right side is a joke. I was screaming for it to go that way. This needs to be sorted in training, and quickly. Its like attacking with half a team

There are a few problems, somethings can be altered now, but alot can't really change until the off season.

I actually think Wellens was one of our better backs yesterday, him and makinson stood out, were as the rest, well they didn't. But even with Wello being one of our better backs, it's all relative.

If we take each spot, we could put Lance at 1, or even makinson at 1, but then that put Wellens no where. Whilst some may rejoice at this, firstly it ain't going to happen and secondly it takes out Wello and puts who into the back line? Lance has not impressed me in any of his spots bar the leeds game, so putting him in for Wello is a none starter.
Half back we do have options, Gaskell was making errors early on in the season, but he was also doing stuff, kicking, passing, taking the ball 1st receiver, linking with Lomax and busting a gut running at the line and getting his head through. If people can't remember this then remember the verbals he got for not passing when he made his break.

Lance does none of the above, to be honest I'm not sure what he does do, and part of it maybe what was said by someone else if he is still running to dummy half.

The pack I thought did a job and whilst none of them made a killer blow in attack, they were solid defensively and gained Saints the majority of the possesion and territory. TP/Sia/Wilkin and Perry would be my suggestion as to who our attacking props are supposed to be. But with TP injured, Sia has not really been as blistering since his incident, Wilkin not seen much of this year and Perry AWOL going forwards, then it's not surprising that whilst being effective we are not turning teams around with the pack as basically every man in the pack offers the same type of game.

So in summary we have a pack that can do the basics very well, but nothing more to offer without TP playing or Sia getting his pre-incident game back.

Halfbacks are not what we need.

Backs, the experienced ones are not being effective, the young ones are making errors.

The daily star reporting today that we've signed turner and told shenton he's playing wing but he's not happy and linked with cas and hull.

that'll be interesting! still unless its the left wing he still wont get any ball!

I cant see it to be honest, he looks far too slow for a winger.

it is in the star!

Darren Albert to Michael Shenton in just a few years, some difference in speed there

i'd give up my arm for a '05 vintage Albert on our wing now!