After being comprehensively beaten on Saturday, is it time for GH/BM to take a good look at the squad and have a clear out?

Obviously we have our stalwarts (KS,RB,JP,DMc), some players approaching their peak, some great young future internationals and then there is a few that just are not up to it after having more than a fair chance to shine.

Ryan Bailey - Has to be the worst player in SL for silly penalties. Big guy, but doesn't use his size or strength to great advantage and cares to bully the little guys, only for his ar*e to fall out when the big guns arrive.

Weller Hauraki - Sorry, not enough time to list his weaknesses, GOT TO GO!!

Chris Clarkson - Still young with plenty of potential but are their signs of him ever showing his best on a consistent basis? Has been in and out the team but just cant hold down a regular place.

Darrell Griffin - Again a big and strong powerful lad but is he really making the difference we need when he comes off the bench?

Richard Moore - Yet again a huge human being, hasn't had many chances, but hasn't played that badly when he has. But surely we would get more out of having Kyle Amor back?

Ian Kirke - Again has been in and out of the team for a number of seasons now. Never really stood out on a regular basis and cant seem to maintain any consistent form.

I'm not for one minute saying we can just go and make wholesale changes to the squad within a matter of months, but surely these are some of the players GH/BM need to be looking at to move on at some stage and trying to improve the squad.

Anyone tend to agree?

yeah but like you say a top quality pack is hard to replace instantly and not always available.

I think it would take some transfer fees and an element of risk to assemble one, I dont know who you would keep peacock n sinfield? or who else knocking on the door from the academy ?

It has been a while since a leeds pack has dominated a top 4 side which i feel they need to do in order to get their backs into the game as i think that they dont have the ability to break from inside their own 20 and score on a regular basis

Jesus Christ - we lose one game, albeit a very important game. but still only one game and this board gets infected with posters who believe we should clear out half of a Championship winning team.

We need one or two class forwards and that's about it!

No so long ago I questioned a statement that G1 made about some fans not deserving to support this current Leeds team - with threads like this I'm starting to think he's right.

The back 3 in the pack are an issue for me, it's nots the worst in the world But they for me are all similar workman like, could do with some line breaking ability back there.

As for Saturday JP was the best forward for leeds

Im yet to see Ryan baileys fall out in a big game, hes been a very good performer this year, even though the side has been inconsistant. JJb to me is a big offender when it comes to giving away silly penalties.

Look at the tactics for saturday, to me it looked like we prepared for a wet weather arm wrestle we got that for about 10 minutes, having jimmy on the bench was a waste of an interchange, ward is a back rower imo, we got the ball to watkins three times, once he got on the outside and got tackled into touch, and the two other times he scored two tries.

I agree the likes of weller, moore, kirke, clarky etc could be replaced but tbh theyre squad players who dont always play every week, and moore and kirke have been doing a decent job this year.

Id give Griffin a starting role next season and bring back amor and rotate jp and kylie accordingly ( JP was our best on sat imo). Also bring in a new centre or give jimmy the off season and give him the left centre.

Regarding kirke, he is probably performing better now than I have seen him play in a while, and he isn't first choice but squad player

This. I'd never thought I'd hear myself say this, but I would more than likely keep him at HQ, unless we signed someone better and he became a waste of cap space.

Agree with the comment re Ward. Would rather see him play 13.

We brought in Griffin and Moore to strengthen our prop forward department & you are now suggesting releasing them, and 2 more props - unbelievable.

Kirke has been good this year and deserves his spot in the side on merit - he's a squad player but a useful one to have around who makes few errors and seems to have a good work ethic and be a good guy in the dressing room.

Bailey has been one of better forwards in the last 3 years despite having a pretty average time in Challenge Cup Finals.

Moore I never really understood. I guess he has helped with rotation but I'd have been happy to see SIngleton get his minutes.

Griffin has disappointed me after a good start despite some glimpses of excellence but is a steady prop.

If we release these 4 and then Peacock and Leuluai retire in 12 & 24 months we'd be looking awful in that department. Experienced prop forwards don't grow on trees and add a high quality one to that lot such as Burgess,Graham or Peacock in his prime and they'd look a good bunch.

One quality signing rather than wholesale changes for me

With Achurch coming in id also recall Amor AND Mcshane.
If we can't sign another forward i'd hope to see Singleton get more mninutes and a new deal for Daniel Smith with the latter hopefully at least getting a dual reg with a short notice recall for certain games.
I've loved watching Kylie and he like others who have played a huge part in making history deserve a HOF place but for me he should be released.
Now we all JP is a Legend pure and simple but if he's to stay then surely he should rotated on a more regular basis and not flogged for 60mins week in week out.
Some big calls need making imo and a simple 1/2 in 1/2 out wont be good enough to get a top 3 spot we should either give the 4 shirt to Keinhorst and back him or sign someone else with quality and get Abbo back in the BR asap because i think we need competition for paces there and there's been too much work-load on Jjb and Delaney.
Bailey is a prop and should be put there and kept there we did well with him at 13 at times but overall i think he should be at Prop.
I think Griffin should stay and although Moore has done well if Mc thinks Kirke is better then he'd be beter off leaving and use one of te youngsters for rotation i.e Singleton.
Is it an over-reaction to a one off final defeat?
Absolutely not imo its been coming for 2 years/18months they've done great to win another GF and a WCC and make 2 CC finals but does that mean we should keep them all when they are clearly inconsistent and towards the end of their careers its a no for me.
Players like Barrie Mc ,Senior ,Webb ,Ali were all released or refused longer deals they were seeking so i think that policy needs to continue id rather have a year with a younger re-built squad learning than see some real Club legends and players who have done good things fior us struggle for a year.

How about losing some of the off-field deadwood ?

They say a good coach turns an average player in to a decent player and a decent player in to a great one.

Just look at what we were up against on Saturday, which could be argued on paper was an equally 'Dads Army' side.

Morley - Given a new lease of life under Smith, when the rest of us thought he was off to Wire to a few fat cheques to top off his pension after a career down under

Briers - Back in the old days, you could smack him early and he'd go missing for the rest of the game. In the same way that Graham Murray rehabilitated Barrie Mac's career, everyone thought that Briers would be one of the first out under TS, but after getting him to knuckle down, it again could be argued that LB is playing the best football of his career

Carvell - Rejected by Leeds & Hull, yet better than most of our pack on Saturday

Hodgson - Another one who was thought to be off to Wire for a pension top-up and who's career would fizzle out. Man Of The Match and rolled back the years ... Compare that to the handling of our penalty machine Brent Webb and isn't he actually younger than Hodgson ?

Add to that some smart recruitment like the Monaghans, the development of Ben Harrison, Ratchford and Myler.

Can of us say this season that any of our players have looked better now under our current coaches that they did under any of the previous coaching teams ?

He wasn't Leeds class in the first place ... I suspect signed to bung some cash to Crusaders to keep them afloat.

Smith is a clever opportunist - he knew Warrington had the money to create a very good side, just like he did at Huddersfield and Leeds. Smith is a great coach but it helps if you can sign the likes of Atkins, Myler, Morley, Monaghan, Hodgson and Ratchford on a regular basis. Compare Warrington's recruitment with that of Leeds over the past 3 years?

i don't rate BM but i don't think recruitment, or lack of it, has helped him

Admiral Hanson is spot on. Warrington are an older side than Leeds and in the long term context have the same issues in terms of having to replace players. It is going to be a problem. Saints went through it a couple of years ago and have dropped their level.

The differences between Leeds and Warrington are that some of Leeds' older players are past their best, whilst Warrington's Dads Army brigade are still top performers even if they are past their absolute peak, and also in terms of the age profile Leeds have a bigger gap between senior players and a lot of young lads (of mixed quality), Warrington have been bringing in early to mid twenties guys that have proved themselves in SL, like Myler, Atkins, Ratchford etc, so there is less of a gap in age and experience.

Now I know some Leeds fans may be automatically defensive because I'm a Warrington fan and say well why are we the champions then, but that was due to one fine performance last year that knocked us out of the playoffs, overall you can't deny that for three years we have been a better team so I'm not trying to score points by bashing Leeds.

Leeds have something that we don't which is a long proven youth academy and so external recruitment of young players from other clubs is probably less of a priority for GH than it is for us, although in recent years our youth set up has got better. We have been able to bring a handful of decent players like Riley, Harrison, Cooper, Evans, McCarthy into the first team but we haven't had the numbers historically of Leeds or Wigan or Saints.

In terms of recruitment of overseas players though it's been a while since Leeds have made really good signings of overseas players, back in the mid 2000s you were bringing in Lauititi, Donald, Furner real top class, but in recent years Leeds have signed a lot of average players where we've done well with overseas players, the Monaghans, Hodgson, Waterhouse have been class and before them King and Hicks too.

I still don't think Leeds are far off but you need a bit more up front in the pack. Bailey should have been released a while ago. I wonder why Leeds weren't in for Carvell when we signed him at a time we were crap and Jimmy Lowes was coach, but ever since we signed him our pack has been dominant and we've been winning trophies. Also Leeds never replaced Ellis, someone like Waterhouse would have been a great Leeds signing.

Its easy to say we've just brought moore and griffin in this season and therefore should not get rid so soon but realistically, Leeds Rhinos should be aiming for a top 3 finish every season. Currently 5th, and have been as low as 8th, I believe 4th should be the minimum for a club of our stature. Therefor I believe that changes need to be made to the squad to be bale to secure a top 3/4 finish. We wont be coming from 5th and winning the GF every season.

Bailey is OOC the end of this season, so those wanting him out may well get their wish.

Is that just your wishful thinking or do you think his contract wont be renewed this time? GH has previously said that some players still under contract might be released. The next few weeks could be very interesting with the aim of buliding up an improved squad so as to challenge for honours in 2013.

You could say that Super League is full of dead wood. Look at Wigan for example, they're after Blake Green to replace Brett Finch. That would see them go from Finch and Leuluai to Green and Matty Smith. That's hardly what you'd expect from the side who've been the best in the comp for the past couple of years.

Same could be said of Saints with the likes of Clough, Dixon, Wheeler, Foster, Perry and Magennis in the Saints squad despite them all being nothing short of mediocre.

Its not just Leeds, its the whole of Super League.

Leeds did replace Ellis with Eastwood but he couldn't make it in 2009 because of a visa problem then when he did arrive he never settled and fekked off back to Oz - We've not managed to fill the gap that Eastwood left with the same standard of player.

I don't want to open up the whole play-offs debate again, but I think if you are honest, last year's GF win, while it was a great acheivement after such a mediocre league campaign, only served to hide the problems that you obviously had, and still have.

It wouldn't be far fetched to say that, for the last 3 seasons, you have been a fair way behind both Wigan and Wire, its just that you have a small core of a side which occasionally can raise their game and match any side around.

I wouldn't go as far as to have a huge clear out....As I say, you have a very talented core in Sinfield, Burrow and McGuire, and have a number of able and talented players, but you do have a small number who seem to be carried along (Bailey and Ablett would be the most obvious two who could be replaced by better on similar salaries).

Also, and I know he already has his detractors among your fans, Brian McDermott's position must also be questioned....Being a Wire fan, I've seen first hand just how much of a difference a coach can make - I think nearly all Wire fans can now see the folly of keeping Paul Cullen for the length of time we did (similarly, the madness of replacing him with Lowes).

I sense a similar thing with McDermott, in that he fails to get the best out of what he has at his disposal.....I honestly think if you had the same sides, but swapped the coaches around on Saturday, then Leeds would now be celebrating a win.

Nor did we replace Big Ali either.
I think the last few games have also shown that maybe Lunt is not the answer.
Get McShane back and play the lad FGS
Also bring back Amor and release Kylie who admittedly does a job when he is on the pitch.
But he is not on the pitch for long which is a problem with the number of interchanges nowadays.
JP needs to pick his games.
Ablett needs to play in the pack so does Sinfield but again he thinks he is stand off.
We need a Briers type half back a centre and an Ali type back rower as new signings.
Burrow or McGuire at SH
JJB, Clarkson and Bailey need to up their game or move on.
Moore and Griffin should be given another year.
I also think Achurch will play prop next year.

What is really needed is a new extra person in the coaching set-up, someone to work on the defence because if you think the defensive structure is bad and gets caught out now when we have plenty of experience in our side, guys who have played in hundreds of games and many finals and seen it all, then what hope do you reckon the defence has if we put together a much younger and less experienced pack? Sure they'll have youthful enthusiasm and energy but you've got to still have great team structures in place especially in your own 20m to keep the oppostion out and if the current lot are struggling with it then i don't see how less experienced guys will manage it.

As for some individuals,
Peacock - some said we should make this his final year but i've always thought he should still be here in 2013. We should follow the route Warrington did with Morley though and have him starting on the bench a bit more next season. Given the enormity of a CC Final he was able to roll back the years but on a weekly basis can't be your number 1 prop all the time.
Bailey - copping a lot of flak for his CC performance but i think this season he has played quite well. He pretty much got dropped into the Loose Forward position out of the blue when Ablett had to revert to centre and Clarkson underperformed but has had some good games there. I've been fine with him selected there these last few months but for the 2013 season i think Ward will be ready to start games there, so reverting back to prop/possibly 2nd Row on the cards.
JJB - Maybe like Peacock, time for him to be starting games on the bench a bit more in 2013. Depends on two things really, how well Achurch does, and if Ablett is returned back to the forwards with Keinhorst gettingt the 4 shirt.
Lunt - is he worth signing? If we had no one else then yes, but he's solid usually with the good game here and there and we have McShane and Hood in the wings.
Clarkson - Still worth holding onto for 1 more year unlike Hauraki to see if this year's hoped improvement comes in 2013.
Moore - gave a good account of himself when given a chance but can't see the point in keeping him ahead of giving Singleton the 4th bench spot on them occasions instead.

For 2013,
Outs - Hauraki, Webb, Moore, Lunt........Clarkson (loaned to another SL club if possible)
Ins/Promoted - Someone to work on the defence, Achurch, Singleton, Hood, McShane, Amor or a new STARTING prop, not a 3rd or 4th choice one (if so then possibly Kirke to leave too).

We badly need a game breaking forward.something most have suspected for a while,but after saturday needs to be made a priority.we will not progress with our current crop.as soon as i saw our bench compared to wires on saturday i feared for us.no impact whatsoever.

Generally I agree with your suggestions. I agree that Sinfield should revert to loose-forward and Stevie Ward in the second row. I think a new quality half-back with a good kicking game and who can direct play would be an advantage and Danny at scrum-half. I would have Rob coming of the bench in the hooking role. The other signing would be a quality starting prop if Kylie and Jamie are going to start more often from the bench. I don't think it needs a revolution but we need to do something to keep us as one of the top 3/4 sides in SL. I would think that with only a few weeks to go to the end of the season, Gary H has already put some plans together for next year.