I’ve probably been our coach’s biggest critic over this season. But he’s done some good stuff and that is what I acknowledge in this week’s damobit - leeds.rlfans.com/readarticle.php?article_id=1678 [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YeRLqLxnbwAlso check this out. It’s the Damo Bit Rugby Ball bouncing around. Still a lot more work to go into the introduction to the show as yet. But it’s getting done. Perhaps as a pilot show prize they could be a real ball with the Damo Bit on..[/url Or we can just have a cake ball..

I’ve probably been our coach’s biggest critic over this season. But he’s done some good stuff and that is what I acknowledge in this week’s damobit - leeds.rlfans.com/readarticle.php?article_id=1678 [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YeRLqLxnbwAlso check this out. It’s the Damo Bit Rugby Ball bouncing around. Still a lot more work to go into the introduction to the show as yet. But it’s getting done. Perhaps as a pilot show prize they could be a real ball with the Damo Bit on..[/url Or we can just have a cake ball..

hmmmmmmm

Quote ="Damo-Leeds"I’ve probably been our coach’s biggest critic over this season. But he’s done some good stuff and that is what I acknowledge in this week’s damobit - leeds.rlfans.com/readarticle.php?article_id=1678 [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YeRLqLxnbwAlso check this out. It’s the Damo Bit Rugby Ball bouncing around. Still a lot more work to go into the introduction to the show as yet. But it’s getting done. Perhaps as a pilot show prize they could be a real ball with the Damo Bit on..[/url Or we can just have a cake ball..'" [ithis team has been in decline since 2006[/i.... Were you asleep in 2007/2008/2009?

Quote ="Damo-Leeds"I’ve probably been our coach’s biggest critic over this season. But he’s done some good stuff and that is what I acknowledge in this week’s damobit - leeds.rlfans.com/readarticle.php?article_id=1678 [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YeRLqLxnbwAlso check this out. It’s the Damo Bit Rugby Ball bouncing around. Still a lot more work to go into the introduction to the show as yet. But it’s getting done. Perhaps as a pilot show prize they could be a real ball with the Damo Bit on..[/url Or we can just have a cake ball..'" [ithis team has been in decline since 2006[/i.... Were you asleep in 2007/2008/2009?

What I was trying to get across is that yeah we’ve won the grand final. But our long seasons haven’t exactly been entertaining have they?

Leeds Rhinos were even playing mediocre under Brian McClennan against mediocre teams and still coming out on top.

The very title of this thread made me kick the nearest person in disgust.

Cut him slack for what?

Yes, we were in decline last year under Bluey. We were poor and looked a shadow of what we had seen before.

Brain though as taking us to new submarine-esq depths. Ok, so we have reached the CC Final, and in fairness we have beaten some handy teams along the way, but be under no illusions. It counts for nothing unless we beat Wigan who are easily the best team we will have faced in the competition.

Yes, we hammered a very very very very poor Cas team last week but that is scant consolation for the inept dross that we have had to watch for large chunks of the season.

It isn't all Brains fault, the players should always take their share of the blame. But, as in all sports these days, the buck stops at the coaches door.

Let me get this straight - if Leeds win all their remaining three league games (entirely plausible, particularly given Huddersfield's fall into a giant hole), then they could well achieve exactly the same league placing as they did in 2010.

They've already reached the same stage of the Challenge Cup as they did in 2010, despite drawing SL opposition in every round.

This has been achieved despite starting the season with two of their best players on the injured list, and playing without either first choice centre for a large chunk of the campaign.

So how exactly have they "plumbed new depths"? Someone clearly doesn't recall some of the shocking performances McLennan's side turned in last year, particularly in the early part of the season. Home capitulations to Castleford and Hull KR, hidings at Saints and Wigan, the awful non-performance in the Challenge Cup Final and the final eliminator?

Yes but McDermott isn't as cuddly as McClennan was.

The new depths they have plunged is the sheer ineptitude that has been witnessed this year. Yes, they were poor under Bluey last season, I do believe I said that in my original post, perhaps you glossed over that in an effort to make your point?

For some reason this season we have forgotten how to tackle, how to pass a ball, how to catch a ball. Brains idea of playing catchup rugby from two minutes into the game saw us throwing the ball about like it was the hottest of hot potatoes. Tactical genius?

As for the 'we had players injured, poor us'. I really dislike this argument. All teams have injuries. Its a squad game, and regardless of who is fit, they should be able to pass and catch a ball.

When your at a top club like Leeds its not just about league position, its about how you play to get to that point. Again, this is open to opinion but the expectation is that you play well and finish in a good position.

As I said, its not all Brains fault but the buck does stop with him.

McDermott groupie duly noted

The fact that we're likely to finish in a similar league position to last year is hardly testament to McDermott's coaching ability.

[Keith Swiftcorn Mode

It's a 5 team competition.

[/Keith Swiftcorn Mode

yes we put in some awful displays under previous coaches but surely not in anyway like this year. strange team selections (to me anyway) young players not getting game time dispite putting in reasonable performances especially with the lack of form of our senior players. . Injury's are not an excuse other teams have them as well and thats even more frustating for not giving the youg guys a chance. Having said that, I think the team as turned the corner and could still produce a shock or two but lets see more flowing rugby and big hit ups like Friday

At least McClennan's side was able to beat all the top 4 clubs last season, something that McDermott has failed to do thus far (with ample opportunity). Not only have Leeds not beaten these sides this season, in the majority of games we have been soundly beaten. Like it or not, this lack of competitiveness is 'plumbing new depths', at least depths not seen since the Powell era if not earlier.

The games you mention were disappointing and things were clearly going stale last year, but the team was still capable of putting in performances against the top clubs when it mattered (CC final aside), even if these performances weren't quite upto the standards of the previous 3 seasons. Like it or not, Leeds were the last club in SL to beat Wigan in the CC and the play-offs, and both happened last season. OK, we didn't make the GF, but we did better in the play-offs than Warrington or arguably even Saints who simply made up the numbers at Old Trafford. I'd be surprised if McDermott can improve on this record for 2011.

Quote ="Fallon"The new depths they have plunged is the sheer ineptitude that has been witnessed this year. Yes, they were poor under Bluey last season, I do believe I said that in my original post, perhaps you glossed over that in an effort to make your point? For some reason this season we have forgotten how to tackle, how to pass a ball, how to catch a ball. Brains idea of playing catchup rugby from two minutes into the game saw us throwing the ball about like it was the hottest of hot potatoes. Tactical genius? As for the 'we had players injured, poor us'. I really dislike this argument. All teams have injuries. Its a squad game, and regardless of who is fit, they should be able to pass and catch a ball. When your at a top club like Leeds its not just about league position, its about how you play to get to that point. Again, this is open to opinion but the expectation is that you play well and finish in a good position. As I said, its not all Brains fault but the buck does stop with him.'" I understood your point quite clearly thanks - that we were poor last year yet this year have apparently been much, much worse. So much worse in fact, that we could well achieve pretty much the same result at the end of the season. Clearly this malaise of being unable to catch, pass and tackle had already set in last year well before McDermott took the reins. From Round 16 of 2010 onwards Leeds conceded 20 points or more in consecutive SL games to Wakefield, Harlequins, Crusaders, Warrington, St Helens, Hull KR, Huddersfield, Salford and Wigan. Given your assertion that it was McDermott's philosophy at the start of the year to play risky, expansive stuff, you might want to check the link below and consider what you would do if your new boss asked you to do something a particular way. www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyl ... e-XVI.html Professional sport is about winning. Ask any coach you like and they'll all tell you that their job is to produce results, not entertainment. On that front, McDermott is by no stretch of the imagination taking the club backwards from where McLennan left it. Do you think Wigan fans are complaining about their "functional" style under Maguire?

Quote ="Fallon"The new depths they have plunged is the sheer ineptitude that has been witnessed this year. Yes, they were poor under Bluey last season, I do believe I said that in my original post, perhaps you glossed over that in an effort to make your point? For some reason this season we have forgotten how to tackle, how to pass a ball, how to catch a ball. Brains idea of playing catchup rugby from two minutes into the game saw us throwing the ball about like it was the hottest of hot potatoes. Tactical genius? As for the 'we had players injured, poor us'. I really dislike this argument. All teams have injuries. Its a squad game, and regardless of who is fit, they should be able to pass and catch a ball. When your at a top club like Leeds its not just about league position, its about how you play to get to that point. Again, this is open to opinion but the expectation is that you play well and finish in a good position. As I said, its not all Brains fault but the buck does stop with him.'" I understood your point quite clearly thanks - that we were poor last year yet this year have apparently been much, much worse. So much worse in fact, that we could well achieve pretty much the same result at the end of the season. Clearly this malaise of being unable to catch, pass and tackle had already set in last year well before McDermott took the reins. From Round 16 of 2010 onwards Leeds conceded 20 points or more in consecutive SL games to Wakefield, Harlequins, Crusaders, Warrington, St Helens, Hull KR, Huddersfield, Salford and Wigan. Given your assertion that it was McDermott's philosophy at the start of the year to play risky, expansive stuff, you might want to check the link below and consider what you would do if your new boss asked you to do something a particular way. www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyl ... e-XVI.html Professional sport is about winning. Ask any coach you like and they'll all tell you that their job is to produce results, not entertainment. On that front, McDermott is by no stretch of the imagination taking the club backwards from where McLennan left it. Do you think Wigan fans are complaining about their "functional" style under Maguire?

Sheep mentality and inability to contribute anything meaningful to a debate duly noted.

Again.

Me .. A sheep ? Baaa humbug.

Tell me .. To seriously support McDermott's abilities as a coach you must be deliberately playing devil's advocate ?

I'd totally agree with Fallon's appraisal of our season so far. It has been pretty dire, with little of the flowing rugby we enjoyed in the main under our previous two coaches. Perhaps the players will decide amongst themselves which style will be on show for Wembley.

Gawd preserve us from the bean counters, who attempt to reduce our great game to a simple table of columns, before they pronounce judgement on whether the season has been a success or not.

As a spectacle, our game is much more than that.

To an extent, but I would also suggest that given it was acknowledged in 2010 that the team was in decline and very little was done in the off-season in terms of player turnover to address that, laying the blame for some of 2011's performances at the door of the coaching staff is well wide of the mark.

You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear - expectations that somehow Leeds would bounce back from 2010 were unrealistic IMO and McDermott/Lowes are copping the backlash for that.

Some folks on here have already made up their mind. Even if Leeds win the Challenge Cup and get to the Grand Final, none of the credit for that will go to the coaching staff. If they fail miserably on both fronts however, you can bet who will take the blame.

I disagree with Andy - not a surprise - Leeds have remained in roughly the same position as last year due to the general decline in standards of the league as a whole.

It is no surprise the top 3/4 sides are well in front of the rest - the hammerings Leeds have suffered at the hands of Saints x 2, Warrington x 2 and Huddersfield x 1 show the team is not remaining in a static position compared to the best in the comp.

Logically the team is ageing - little new blood is being introduced so logically standards will drop - their league position suggests the slow down at Leeds is matched by the slow down of the non contending sides in the league.

Your citing of poor results V Warrington, St Helens and Huddersfield while excluding creditable ones V Wigan could be viewed as being a little disengenuous given the comparison you are drawing is between Leeds and the best in the comp.

Normally I wouldn't respond in such a methodical manner to someone who clearly has taken up Brains corner as some kind of personal crusade.


Well, clearly you havent got my point. We MAY finish in the same position as last year. Lets not get carried away by one good 80 mins against a very bad Cas side. But that isnt the whole story or the full point. We have been poor this season, even by last seasons form. Our inability to do the basics for long periods of the season is a worry. How can you coach a team to do an intricate set play if they cant even catch and pass?


I dont get all warm and fuzzy over stats but I seem to remember a period this season where we were conceding over 30 points every game. To me that feels like a slide from the 20 points you mention.


Not interested. Brain is the coach so he coaches his way. If my boss said 'do it this way' and I knew/believed there was a better way I would say so. He is the coach.


I agree its about winning. hence I said my point was open to opinion. The point Im making is that at a top club its about more than 'just winning'. You have to play well. Fans would accept playing 'functional rugby' if we were winning. But we arent. We are playing predominantly poor rugby and losing.


You think Wigan are just 'functional'? Come on, much as it pains me, they are so much more than this. They can play open expansive rugby when the need and opportunity is there. But they can also keep it tight and close when they have to. What Maguire has done is teach them when to do what.

Take the blinkers off and look around.

Don't forget that the current playing staff are largely the same as in 2007, 2008 and 2009 - this is far from being a sow's ear.

This is the thing that I think pi55es most people off about the current coach - the team has so much potential and can play much better than it's current doing, but at the moment we're playing way below our abilities and wasting the talent that's there.

We were awful last year at the start of the season, but that could be reasonably attributed to a diabolical injury situation and you could also add the WCC as an extra burdon. From late April onwards, when we got some players back, our record was pretty much the same as eventual champions Wigan and we managed to knock them out of the cup along with Saints. If we hadn't started the way we did we would heave been top 2, if not top itself. Sure, we got pummeled in the CC, but these things can happen. Everything Warrington did turned to gold that day and we never got into the game. Our exit from the playoffs was hardly unexpected considering we lost our best forward and our player of the year prior to the eliminator.
I think we were close second to Wigan last year when at full strength and had we met them in a GF with McGuire and Peacock it would have been 50/50. We would certainly have beaten Saints for a 4th in a row.

This year, it's true we have had no McGuire. Last year he was rightly our player of the year and was the difference in many games (his display in the away vistory at Warrington was awesome). He isn't fit and may never get back to full sharpness. Peacock was also immense for most of last year and McDermott has had to start without him for much of the season. We also lost Eastwood who (when fit) did add a lot. His replacements, Hauraki and Cross are/were frankly e.
So how has McDermott performed? If (and it's an "if"icon_wink.gif we do match last years league placing we won't have ever come close to last years league "performance". We also have no hope for the playoffs - anyone thinking otherwise can send me details of what they are drinking or smoking, i'd like to know the next time I want to drift out of reality completely. This is one of the worst Leeds seasons I've seen in a long, long time. A soft cup run doesn't hide the fact that we have never looked anything close to quality for more than 10 minutes at a go. They simply look clueless, and while I admit, we played off the cuff for most of last year and got away with it because of the likes of McGuire and Eastwood, the cuff this year is looking not so much like that on the sleeve of a 16th century French nobleman, and more like that worn by someone sleeping rough at the back of the Headrow.

McDermott has failed to energise an ageing squad with some miles still in the tank and he's failed to bring on some of the younger players. A quality coach would have lifted a squad that was obviously needing an injection of desire and hunger. They also need to start enjoying rugby more after the pressure of 3 straight championships and the eventual deflation of last year. McDermott and Lowes have not managed this in any way, shape or form and irrespective of technical aspects of performances the team look miserable. You can't even say that we've been rebuilding or restructuring because if we have we are turning the Taj Mahal into Quarry Hill Flats.

"Time to cut our coach a bit of slack?" A good assistant yes, but no coach!

To be fair the poor recruitment is more the responsibility of GH than BM. I agree entirely with what you're saying about the play-offs though - we'd have to beat at least two of the sides we have so far failed to beat this year (and not even close in most of those games). We have also had a comparatively easy cup run - it would have been hard to pick 4 SL teams you'd prefer to play in the cup than the ones we have.

Getting to Wembley gives a chance for this season to be seen in a very different light. Looking at the range of possible results and likely outcomes (I'm assuming in every case we get knocked out in the play-offs):

1) We win - BM safe for next season, and rightly so. This is the least likely outcome to me, but it is possible. If this happens a lot more focus for poor performances needs to be put on the players, who will have shown they are still capable when they really want to put in an effort, which puts other results and performances in perspective.

2) We lose narrowly - BM safe for next season. This will be put down as a 'glorious failure' and reason to persevere with the coach.

3) We get hammered - it will be very difficult for GH to explain the rationale behind retaining BM. He reacted furiously to last year's Wembley hammering, and given the fact Bluey must have had some leeway from winning 2 GFs, it'd be bizarre to say the least to retain BM.

A narrow defeat at Wembley is probably the worst outcome of all for the future. A win would be best (obviously) and ought to give BM another season to develop the team - and ought to give him a bit more clout with the players. I for one would be willing to give him a season more then. A hammering ought to see BM depart (if not GH has a lot of explaining to do). A narrow loss could see BM retained for next year with BM's position still under threat and based on this year, see Leeds fall further behind the pack.

From afar, the stick bm gets seems harsh. It appears a top 4 position is certainly obtainable for leeds and a cc final. almost all teams would have taken this, certainly given the fact that at least 3 (hudds, wigan and wire) seem to have better squads, that is not a bad thing.

The most amazing thing is that you have had a total change of backroom staff and injuries to your KEY players, yet still dont seem to take these into account at all. any team missing there starting half back and centre, 2 outside backs who would start and jp would expect to struggle a little. This also doesnt account for 2 of your quota guys not addapting or doing well, seems your league position and cup run is best you could have hoped for.