"You can get caught up in just winning games by completions, completions, completions but people like to see some risk-taking and people making breaks from their own area and scoring length-of-the-field tries.

"That's why people turn up. If we get too much into win-at-all-costs, at the peril of entertainment, we'll be limited to how long we're in jobs."

An interesting view on the game - a definite jibe at Maguire and his NRL style tactics. I knew we had some common ground it was just a question of finding it

I seem to remember a certain coach getting widely ridiculed for his comments about completion rates not long ago.

Presumably when these same comments are repeated by multiple Grand Final and Challenge Cup winning coach Tony Smith they'll be met with a different reaction.

thats because tony smith has the nous to implement said style of play and the certain coach u talk of couldnt implement an scratching contest!

It's not a question of completion rates or playing expansive football, it's always a question of decision making. The ideal is for players to spin it when it's on - no matter where you are on the field - and to keep it tight when it's not on - again no matter where you are on the field (how many times do teams throw the ball aimlessly all over 5 yards from their opponents line when they should be setting something planned). Having all the techniques are fine, having pace and ability is fine, but if you do the wrong thing at the wrong time it makes no difference.

So basically it isn`t the coaches fault we are crap it is down to the players making the wrong decisions?

We have lift off.

It seems to me that the general standard of Super League is at the lowest since the summer era began. Overcoached, sterile and often pretty dull - the current rise and success of Wigan exemplifies all that is currently wrong with the game. High on wrestling, slowing down at the PTB, tackling technique obsessed, completion focused and playing the percentages just chronically dull and a grind to watch. Fingers crossed that Warrington smash them on Saturday.

In general something needs to be done to improve our game - it really is getting dull with the pre-eminence of physicality, power, structure and defensive organisation choking the style and entertainment out of the game.

Indeed I have lost interest to such an extent that I went to watch Harry Potter with the wife and kids rather than watching the Leeds Hull game - this would have been unheard of 2 or 3 years ago. Having watched the game when I came back I knew I had made the right call. (Voldemort dies in the end by the way)

So you think the players are making the right decisions at the moment?

Sure Wigan have a highly proficient defence but they couple that with a structured attack employing multiple dummy runners and options and create numerous overlaps and scoring opportunities.

They don't go in for off the cuff individual plays as much as some teams but perhaps that's because they do just fine sticking to the formula. The failing as I see it is with the teams that rely on individual flair.

Either way Wigan are still second only to Warrington in the points scored stats since Maguire took over so hardly the dullards of SL.

There are all sorts of factors in this.
Yes, Wigan play a little more structured. They play "this is what we're going to do, you try to stop it"
Some teams (I suppose we're trying to) play a little more reactive - we'll react to what we open or the defence doesn't cover, and be a bit more off the cuff.

Funnilly enough, it's often the poorer teams that need to look after the ball more. A better team might be able to take some risks and know their defence is good enough to rescue them if they turn the ball over. A team with a bit less ability might need to look after the ball more, and endeavour to play more on field position, playing as much as possible in the other teams half.

As DHM says though, whatever the strategy and whatever the tactic, ultimately it's about decision making on the field.

an argument peddled by many a Wigan fan on the VT and beyond, and not one I agree with is more points scored = more exciting to watch

Indeed. And the two top try scorers last season were? The two Wigan wingers.

I take as much pleasure and "entertainment" from seeing a committed, aggressive defence with the team working together to protect their line. After all defence is half the game, but of course that is not "entertaining" - and people wonder why we get our backsides kicked anytime we see Aus or NZ on the same pitch as us.

If we were in their position in the league table and playing like they do there would be no complaints from me .

FFS get a grip . A win is a win . It does not matter how you achieve it .
I would bet a few quid that a lot of people can't ( and don't really care to ) remember how we won three in a row . They only care that we acheived what we did .
Boring rugby is fun while you are on the winning side .
An entertaining loser is still a loser . A boring winner is still the winner . I think it is commonly known as the Jimmy White/Steve Davis syndrome .

a boring game is a boring game, whoever wins
I wouldn't pay to watch boring rugby and dodgy tactics even if it meant winning every game
you will also note that some people were complaining about the way the team was playing declining even when champions, id rather watch a trophyless entertaining season than one like this year that included a trophy win

TS is spot on and his coaching of England in the RLWC of 2008 bears testament to those [i'entertainment-first'[/i principles. I hardly remember England completing a set all tour but it was certainly fun, slapstick and entertainment in a LOL... PMSL... ROFLMAO kind of way throughout... particularly that 52-4 punchline. Pure, entertaining, rugby comedy genius... the Aussies and Kiwis were in stitches

Some people just complain all the time.

We'd all rather see exciting, edge-of-the-seat rugby. Only a complete moron would disagree.

I've never understood these people who cream over good defence - leave that to the coaches, we're spectators and we pay to be entertained. When our defence is good it's certainly a feather in our cap, but preferring to watch a solid goal line defence over a end-to-end knockonathon is simply taking the fun out of rugby league.

That said, I'd know what kind of Leeds team I'd rather be watching right now

I like good defence.
A good strong hit in the collision
The wrestle that controls the speed of the PTB.
Attacking defence from marker.
The alignment of the defensive line, and the variety of tactical options available.
A hard working defensive line that gets up fast.
Mobile cover from wingers and fullback.

What's not to like?

I would disagree with those saying the standard is far lower than it has been, I think the standard is better than ever. You can't conflate 2 separate arguments about quality & entertainment.

The quality is higher but the entertainment is lower.

Just from watching the highlights of the 2004 season really stuck in my mind. The defences were far slower, less structured & easier to break down and create gaps. This is not to denigrate the 2004 team, but merely to highlight the improved quality now.
Although I would heartily agree that SL then was far better to watch than SL now.

When can we start moaning about the salary cap?

As fans why do we love watching our teams?
I look forward to watching my team play every weekend as it fulfills something missing in my day to day life.
I would love to have the courage to be able to play at the top level (let alone the ability lol). I would love to learn how to be dedicated, disciplined and committed to a cause. When I watch my team play I want to see these characteristics. I want to see passion in my team and a ruthlessness to give there best effort in order to win. If we lose but give our absolute best I am a happy supporter. Regardless of completions or the entertainment value of the tries scored, show me the love. Love of the club.

Basically mate you are describing Leeds from 07 to 09(more so under bluey than smith)

I'm not picking a fight with you but it seems to me some fans have very short memories! People wernt moaning when we were chocking and slowing and picking up trophies. The saints fans were moaning because they wernt winning trophies. Now we arnt winning trophies guess what? Leeds fans are crying foul.

I happen to like how Wigan play. If their attack is boring then god I would love some boring at HQ.

Then you don't understand me at all. Even more you are fundamentally not understanding and missing a massive, maybe the most important point and part of rugby league. I love the defensive side of the game more than attack! My highest level of enjoyment watching Leeds was at it's peak when we were nilling teams for fun. All they talk about in Aus is defense is an attitude! A do or die, fight for and with the blokes around you to protect the line at all costs.

Structure
Communication
Commitment
Control
Displine
Aggression
Anticipation

Get this attitude right and the team flourishes and attack follows as the principles are the same. Having great spirt in defensive breaths life into a team. A team spirt which is solid, so hard to stop and is so tough to break!

Basically that's a champion team with a champion team spirt!

Our own team on the face of it has a Fooking $hite attitude and team spirt right now! I was pleased we nilled FC that's a massive improvement but hull couldn't hold the ball. Big scores conceeded in defeat and victory to wire twice, saints twice, hudds, hull KR, catalans, Bradford and Wigan says it all about this current team.

In contrast to you I totally understand people who don't get why good defence is to be creamed over! I understand they don't understand the game.

The 1st Melbourne WCC was one of the best games i've ever been to ,certainly the most brutal and that was defence dominated and a joy to watch.