Sometimes it is easy to forget that Gary Hetherington is the chief executive of two clubs. If I was a union fan then I’d be absolutely appalled at the way Leeds Carnegie has been handled over the years and especially in the last decade. The club is either struggling at the bottom of the premiership or battling for promotion most of the time and they seems to be no clear way out of this struggle. Even if the club gets promoted again, they’ll probably get relegated or finish near the relegation zone because the club seems void of ambition even from an outsiders point of view.

It’s clear that Gary isn’t the person to take the union club forward and it’s time to appoint someone else in his capacity IMO. He needs to be concentrating more on the Rhinos.

Ironically when Gary wasn’t in charge of Leeds Carnegie – it was when Leeds Rhinos went on to win three in a row. I’d love to see a return to those days but I wonder if we ever will under Gary Hetherington again.

Everything just seems to be going from bad to worse at the club atm. The academy has declined along with the decision making and staff.

I think Leeds Rhinos are going to end up like Leeds Tykes unless Gary snaps out of his stubbornness to run things his way at any expense.

hmmm.....I would hope Gary would anticipate the sell out matches that would come with a successful team.

I'd imagine the money obtained from a successful rhinos side would be worth the investment in the team.

Leeds will win the Grand Final and Challenge Cup this year.

....or they might not.

Either way, I'm not too bothered. Leeds won 4 times between 2004 and 2009. I can live with that for many many years having watched Leeds in the good old days when they won nowt!!

Hetherington knows what he's doing.

Britain will become an ecomomic world beating powerhouse this year.

....or it might not.

Either way, I'm not too bothered. Britain was a great place to live in the not too distant past of the expanding credit boom. I can live with that for many many years having lived in Britain when we were second best and in the relative doldrums.

Cameron knows what he's doing

GH has been the CEO of Union team for years and whilst they are very restricted in terms of funding and prize money the last couple of squads should never of got relegated.
As for the Rhinos we are in a sticky patch no doubts but lets not get silly damo GH has virtually built this club (along with Caddick) from the brink of extinction and he'll soon have us challenging at the top of SL again.

hear hear

I agree and now sit back and wait for Keith Softcock or whatever he is called to turn up...........

Damo lad, I love the Damo Bit but have a word with yourself.

If I was a Union fan I'd take a look at the millions of pounds thrown at other expansion clubs and realise that Leeds Carnegie have done pretty well considering. They managed to stay up last season and only narrowly lost out to Newcastle this season. Leeds Carnegie are screwed by P&R in Union. If they had a franchise system Carnegie could plan, keep hold of better players, attempt to develop the academy & develop the club, but since they continually face the threat of relegation they can't afford to waste money on development when the first team is so important. So it gets packed with average players and any decent ones leave as soon as they are relegated again. Carnegie has no chance to plan for the future and Caddick doesn't have the millions & millions required to bankroll a successful Union team.

Also Hetherington was in charge of Carnegie well before, during & after the Rhinos 3 in a row feat.

Quote ="Damo-Leeds"Ironically when Gary wasn’t in charge of Leeds Carnegie – it was when Leeds Rhinos went on to win three in a row. I’d love to see a return to those days but I wonder if we ever will under Gary Hetherington again. '" WTF are you on about -This must be a contender for the least accurate post ever made Hetherington was CEO of Leeds Rugby...that's both the Union and League sides all the way through our 3 in a row...here's a nice article from 2005 (remember back then...I do we were 31 years and counting) where Gary explains the cosy set up... news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_l ... 717193.stm Quote ="Damo-Leeds"If I was a union fan then I’d be absolutely appalled at the way Leeds Carnegie has been handled over the years and especially in the last decade. The club is either struggling at the bottom of the premiership or battling for promotion most of the time and they seems to be no clear way out of this struggle. Even if the club gets promoted again, they’ll probably get relegated or finish near the relegation zone because the club seems void of ambition even from an outsiders point of view. '" You really need to read up on your Carnegie history. Carnegie are lucky to be a yoyo club...if it wasn't for the fact that they're Caddick's play thing they'd probably not even be in division one never mind recently relegated from the Premiership. They don't lack ambition...they're already massively over achieving. Within "the last decade" (2005) Leeds RU won the [uonly[/u major trophy in their history. As recently as 1996 Leeds RU were playing in the [u4th division[/u. While part of a common entity there is very very little that can be compared between the RU and RL sides of Leeds. Compare and contrast... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leeds_Carnegie#Honours en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leeds_Rhinos#Honours

Quote ="Damo-Leeds"Ironically when Gary wasn’t in charge of Leeds Carnegie – it was when Leeds Rhinos went on to win three in a row. I’d love to see a return to those days but I wonder if we ever will under Gary Hetherington again. '" WTF are you on about -This must be a contender for the least accurate post ever made Hetherington was CEO of Leeds Rugby...that's both the Union and League sides all the way through our 3 in a row...here's a nice article from 2005 (remember back then...I do we were 31 years and counting) where Gary explains the cosy set up... news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_l ... 717193.stm Quote ="Damo-Leeds"If I was a union fan then I’d be absolutely appalled at the way Leeds Carnegie has been handled over the years and especially in the last decade. The club is either struggling at the bottom of the premiership or battling for promotion most of the time and they seems to be no clear way out of this struggle. Even if the club gets promoted again, they’ll probably get relegated or finish near the relegation zone because the club seems void of ambition even from an outsiders point of view. '" You really need to read up on your Carnegie history. Carnegie are lucky to be a yoyo club...if it wasn't for the fact that they're Caddick's play thing they'd probably not even be in division one never mind recently relegated from the Premiership. They don't lack ambition...they're already massively over achieving. Within "the last decade" (2005) Leeds RU won the [uonly[/u major trophy in their history. As recently as 1996 Leeds RU were playing in the [u4th division[/u. While part of a common entity there is very very little that can be compared between the RU and RL sides of Leeds. Compare and contrast... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leeds_Carnegie#Honours en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leeds_Rhinos#Honours

Well that’s the last time I’m talking about something I don’t have a clue about in regards to rugby union



Anyhow I’ll take any humiliation on this thread on my chin and just be grateful for the education people are giving here.



So thanks for having me told!

However I must answer this –



There’s no doubt that these two took this club from the brink of extinction and that we are now in a sticky patch. But you have to wonder whenever we’ll get out of this sticky patch. I suppose time will only tell and I wish them two all the best in doing so!

Unusual to see anyone admit they're wrong around here

That's what I like about Damo: he's not afraid to express an opinion....but is more than prepared to listen, accept constructive criticism and concede to a stronger argument. Good on ya Damo

Damo deserves cake, somebody give the lad some cake.

Leeds will never have the supporters its needs to have sustained success in the top flight. It is a plastic club made from a merger of two others which unsurprisingly alienated both sets of fans.

Perhaps if Hetherington had taken the same tack with the RU side he did with the RL side when they had no money i.e. concentrate on youth development they would now be in a stronger position than they are? Paying the likes of Marshall - past it Kiwis - outrageous money was completely flawed. As with the RL side Hetherington seems to have an eversion to paying for a top coach - another flawed logic? Finally marketing of the RU side has been a disaster - crowds that make Wakey look positively pucker - are an embarrassment, it is no wonder the top RU clubs don't want Leeds at their table.

[iSticky patch[/i.....s

The RU acadamy has been quite good at producing players tbf Sal it's just that clubs like Wasps Leicester and co come poaching them the likes of Care ,Palmer and Crane have all represented England are products of the RU acadamy and the disadvantages of a newly promoted RU team are ridiculous in terms of prize money and the tv share.

Leeds Carnegie get average crowds close to 6,000, similar to Wakefields crowds and actually higher than Newcastle's for last season. Attendances, whilst low, aren't the big problem for Carnegie.

I would suggest Hetherington can't tale the same tack with Carmegie as he did with the Rhinos for a few reasons. The first & major one being that the 2 clubs are at different ends of the spectrum. There was no/very very little expectation of Leeds being relegated when Hetherington took over the league team. Yet the Union team has been favourites for relegation in virtually every season they've been in the top flight. That means, as we know and realised in RL, that every season you HAVE to prioritise the first team to try and avoid relegation and so other areas of the club suffer. Also young players are less likely to join Carnegies academy if they are certain to be relegated than another Premiership club who are likely to stay up. There is no comparison to be made between the 2 clubs. 1 was a relatively popular, "big" club with bags of potential in a heartland area. The other is an expansion club in an expansion area with little/no prior support and in a city where the sport is at least 4th behind football, RL & cricket. Another reason is money. Caddick is not a money man able to happily throw away tens of millions, which is what it would take since building a Union club is more expensive than building a League club. The need for far larger squads for example in a far larger salary cap and generally a larger coaching team. Also a small Union club in Leeds will struggle for decent sponsorship and corporate income due to, as I said, being the 4th sport in the city. Yes, there are Land Rover & Jaguar sponsor boards at Carnegie games, but they are not direct Carnegie sponsors, they sponsor the Aviva Premiership & Carnegie merely get a small amount of money for having those sponsor boards up thanks to an agreement between them & the Aviva Premiership. Carnegie really does struggle for money to compete.

As I said, if Carnegie were afforded a franchise for a certain number of years then maybe they could take the time to effectively develop an academy, but since they don't and since theydont have enough money, I find it hard to criticise them for being stuck in a rubbish system. Especially considering the pathetically poor state of Unions 2nd division it makes for a huge jump and a huge drop for 1 club every season. The kind of thing we realised in League wasn't good for clubs and thankfully have stopped. If we still had P&R, Crusaders, Wakefield, Quins, Salford & possibly a few others would be in the same boat as Leeds Carnegie - poor crowds, poor sponsorship, poor infrastructure, poor academy, poor finances & ploughing every penny into a first team. Fortunately were not so these League clubs can develop other areas of the club, something Carnegie can't do without effectively sacrificing their Premiership ambitions for several seasons, which would drastically affect their ability to develop the areas of the club they want to.

Innit.

We must - as usual - agree to differ.

Hetherington has not changed his tack since the inception of the RU side - it is no surprise they are a YO-YO club whilst he continues to implement the same strategy how are things going to change? Filling the side with average players every time they get promoted and jetisoning them everytime they get relegated is no recipe for progress

If ten years ago they had put a strategy of youth development in place by now half the side could have come from the academy. Whilst I take your point regarding trying to stay in the top flight could have been difficult initially, by now it could reaped something more sustainable by now - and let's face it they have spent a few years in the lower tier since. You mention three players that have come through their academy - that's is an embarrassing figure for a county the size of Yorkshire and the amount it is played in its schools.

On coaching I appreciate union is a far more technical sport than league and the level of specialism required is greater. Why not bring the specialist in as and when you need them rather than carry them the whole time? You cannot practise scrums everyday so bring a specialist in when you want to specifically practise this skill, same with kicking, same with line outs etc. That way you get rid of jack of all trades and get masters of a few.

The RU side has a big advantage on other RU sides - it has facilities that is doesn't have to maintain both playing and training. For most clubs this is a huge drain on their finances. Also virtually all the administration will be paid for by other areas of the Leeds rugby business - a luxury not afforded to other clubs.

How much Sky TV money do the Tykes get while in the Premiership and how much do they lose through relegation, and how does this compare to the Sky TV money that the Rhinos receive?

Significantly more - the salary cap is 2.5 times the size

I'd agree he hasn't changed tack, why would he? The system that forces clubs to spend on short term, first team issues hasn't changed. Every single season Leeds Carnegie are either desperately fighting tooth & nail to stay in the Premiership or they are not in the Premiership. If you are suggesting that once in the Premiership Carnegie should sacrifice the first team for the academy then I would point out that is a recipe for disaster. Carnegie would get 40 points shoved up them every week, not win a game, lose what little support & sponsorship they have. That is not likely to encourage young Union players to sign up to Carnegie's academy knowing 100% for certain they will be in division 2. Especially when they could sign for Sale or Newcastle. So not only would it not help the academy it would decimate other parts of the club.

They are stuck in the P&R system that we saw sense and got rid of. If there were a franchise system Carnegie could attempt to build. I didn't mention any players but I would suggest that 3 players into the England squad is actually pretty good considering that yes there are plenty of RU teams in Yorkshire, but most of the good young players are from public school teams who often have historical affiliations with other Union clubs and they are filtered out to those instead of to Carnegie.

I'm really not sure how top class coaches are willing to work part time for Leeds Carnegie when they could work full-time for a bigger Union club down south. Also, seriously, Union clubs practice scrummaging an awful lot, from what I've seen at least 3 or 4 sessions per week. Same goes for lineouts.

As for the facilities argument well yes they do have an advantage there but they receive significantly less money. Up until this season they've received less TV money than other clubs, will receive less for each time they are on tv and will receive less because they are on tv less than other clubs. They also don't get the same kind of Heineken cup money and don't benefit from the huge sponsorship/corporate money available to Union clubs down south. A friend of mine works as a physio for Saracens. A table of 10 at their end of year dinner costs £7,000 and there are over 20 tables. I don't know what Carmegies equivalent is but I'd guess it's nowhere near since the Rhinos is nowhere near that! There is huge sponsorship money going into the southern Union clubs, plus of course they get better attendances.

Leeds Carnegie struggle for money (hence the rumour Caddick is considering ditching them after having lost around £8m over the last few years) and are trapped in the same system that league clubs like Cas, Widnes & Leigh suffered from except with added problem that the Union 2nd division is far weaker than League's.

There's a massive lack of understanding and knowledge being displayed about all things Carnegie in this thread, mainly by the usual suspects.

Leeds Carnegie have had something like 30 players through their Academy who have represented England at age group level. A number of those (Tom Biggs, Tom Palmer, Danny Care, Jordan Crane, Callum Clark for example) have gone on to represent England at full or Saxons level.

To accuse them of not producing their own players is blind ignorance of the highest order.

Where they have struggled is in retaining those players, as the best of them have moved on to other clubs who are more likely to be in the top flight year in, year out in order to improve their representative prospects (as seen again this year with the likes of Kearnan Myall and Luther Burrell - two more Academy products with big futures - moving on to pastures new).

Because rugby union continues to have automatic P&R in its league structures, Carnegie haven't had the luxury of just being able to throw a load of young players into the first team when they have been in the top flight and give them time to develop. They've had to go for experience, in much the same way the promoted NFP/Championship clubs coming in to SL used to.

On the "appointment of poor coaches" front - one of the former first team coaches at Carnegie is now in charge of England Saxons. Andy Key was on the coaching staff at Leicester and headed up their highly successful Academy structure. Neil Back had been successful with Leicester's reserve team off the back of a stellar playing career. It's not like these were out of left field appointments with no pedigree to back them up.

What was 31 years and counting?